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  1. #91
    Senior Member Pathfinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'ha'dum View Post
    But, tabletop and house rules aside, this is still about the computer game and I sincerely hope that swapping gear (other than weapon sets) during combat won't be allowed. In the end you are free to do as you please in your home games, but personally I really don't want to see any of this type of thing in this game.
    Yes that is actually one thing what feel kind of odd. I mean not only can you pause and change items, scrolls and potions you can actually go for dead body inventory (companion), take items, put them for other party member and use them in same instant you stop pause. No matter how long each other in the map these members are. I know "it's a kind of magic". But still...

    If someone will try and let us know is it allso possible to take full plate armour from one member and switch it for another member using pause in full combat. Atleast that should easily take atleast 30 minute time or more considering you are in melee and maybe have to throw every piece of these items (hey here come gauntlet catch!) to other person and have someone to help take fullplate off and on.

    I am not even bothering to go for a part where female gnome with full plate give it for male half-orc or human.. How many days it would need with smith. And after that one battle if they choose to switch back.. ..oh boy.
    Last edited by Pathfinder; 02-08-2018 at 08:20 AM.
    "Road to the man's heart go through the chest"

  2. #92
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'ha'dum View Post
    No the key here is understanding the difference between ascetic and aestethic. The first one being something that applies to monks and the second being something that applies to your Mr. Bling. As such I find your concept very non-monk like.
    I think you need to distinguish between the out-of-character description (Mr Bling) with the in-character description





    The individual "balls" are often used in meditation and prayer; it is but a small step to then picture each individual ball to be an amulet of mighty fists (simply a bunch woven together) - and my monk spends the appropriate action (standard, double-move, whatever) to select the appropriate ball and invoke a small mantra over it to "activate" its effect in lieu of all others. That's a flavorful, real-world, and in-theme way to achieve what I want while also adhering to the rules.

    That said, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that a particular class pre-ordains the characters that may be created with it. The class abilities set a framework over which the character is sensibly draped. For example, a detective in Magnimar might be envisioned as a ranger (with favored enemy human); not because he hates humans and wants to kill them - but because he intimately is acquainted with human ways, their method of thinking, the means to be track them, etc

    Likewise the monk chassis can serve as framework for a mountain hermit as well as a wrestler. Wisdom bonus to armor... that can mean protection through contemplation/insight, but it could also be rephrased as protection through conviction/divinity, or protection through awareness, or even protection through sense motive (of attacker), it could even be protection through awesomeness (fighting spirit, an aura so palpable it offers protection).

    The idea of a vow-of-poverty monk running around with a treasure trove of baubles is anathema, sure. But monk A with amulet of natural armor +3, ring of protection +3, cloak of resistance +3, and bracers of armor +4 (61k) is somehow "purer" than monk B with 11 bane amulets of mighty fist and a cloak of resistance +4 (60k)? That's nonsense. Irori teaches there are many ways to enlightenment, and he does not favor one over the other.

  3. #93
    Member Yesterday's Hero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenriHakl View Post
    That said, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that a particular class pre-ordains the characters that may be created with it.
    I'm with you on this one. Also, the pictures of the monks with the collars that have a bunch of beads helped me imagine the concept.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'ha'dum View Post
    No the key here is understanding the difference between ascetic and aestethic. The first one being something that applies to monks and the second being something that applies to your Mr. Bling. As such I find your concept very non-monk like.

    This is simply a matter of rule mongering or linguistic loopholes as far as I'm concerned. It's extremely difficult to write water tight rules so a bit of common sense is always needed to look at the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. You clearly chose the letter of the law and completely forgot in the process what a monk as a class is really all about.

    I will give you this...it's a funny twist and it has some comedy value on a concept level, but as a DM I would never allow this for obvious reasons. A monk that carries around many trinkets is contradictory in and of itself. It's like a cleric that goes against their own god. Such things are not done or come with dire consequences...like the god withholding their powers till they learned their lesson.

    But, tabletop and house rules aside, this is still about the computer game and I sincerely hope that swapping gear (other than weapon sets) during combat won't be allowed. In the end you are free to do as you please in your home games, but personally I really don't want to see any of this type of thing in this game.
    Actually, Monks in Pathfinder don't have to be ascetics.The main monk god (Irori) is focused on Self Improvement and hard work rather than living frugally. And the only code in the rulebook for monks is that they must be Lawful. This includes (for reasons that honestly baffle me) Drunken Masters. This isn't Buddhist monks so much as it is Wu Xia heroes like Sun Wukong and Wong Fei-hung.

    There's no reason that A monk couldn't wear more bling than a particularly blinged out rapper, complete with a Manticore fur coat and bracers of armor mode from solid gold and embedded with 900 diamonds each (for grinding into diamond dust later).

    In the Kingmaker computer game such alternative styles of play are probably not supported, but that doesn't mean you can't use them in the Pen and Paper Roleplaying game. assuming the standard "Move Action to draw and wield an item, it should be easy enough to retrieve a medallion from your belt and put it on, so why not just retrieve it from your neck and assume the same move action?

  5. #95
    Senior Member Grifta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'ha'dum View Post
    But, tabletop and house rules aside, this is still about the computer game and I sincerely hope that swapping gear (other than weapon sets) during combat won't be allowed. In the end you are free to do as you please in your home games, but personally I really don't want to see any of this type of thing in this game.
    Swapping should be allowed, but it should take the RaW amount of time. Switching to your Amulet of Adaptation when someone drops a cloud kill on you should always be an option... I may be playing too much Metro: Last Light (standard Russian SciFi where everyone owns a gas mask ;P ).

  6. #96
    Member Z'ha'dum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratagemini View Post
    Actually, Monks in Pathfinder don't have to be ascetics.The main monk god (Irori) is focused on Self Improvement and hard work rather than living frugally. And the only code in the rulebook for monks is that they must be Lawful. This includes (for reasons that honestly baffle me) Drunken Masters. This isn't Buddhist monks so much as it is Wu Xia heroes like Sun Wukong and Wong Fei-hung.

    There's no reason that A monk couldn't wear more bling than a particularly blinged out rapper, complete with a Manticore fur coat and bracers of armor mode from solid gold and embedded with 900 diamonds each (for grinding into diamond dust later).

    In the Kingmaker computer game such alternative styles of play are probably not supported, but that doesn't mean you can't use them in the Pen and Paper Roleplaying game. assuming the standard "Move Action to draw and wield an item, it should be easy enough to retrieve a medallion from your belt and put it on, so why not just retrieve it from your neck and assume the same move action?
    Well, as I mentioned I haven't played Pathfinder as such, just D&D in many incarnations, so you have me at a disadvantage here. Still, I think it's a poor interpretation of a monk, but that is of course just my opinion.

    As it stands though I still feel like it makes no sense to have people with 10 amulets that swap them during combat just to get a specific advantage for that moment. In my view that devaluates magic items overall. I realise it's just my opinion but I prefer magic items to be more rare and not just a dime a dozen type things.

    One thing I've seen a lot in games especially in recent years is that there is a tendency to want to give people things too quickly. The instant gratification element is there but it doesn't have to be instant even to have a negative effect. If it's so easy to get 10 amulets in the way you want, then it gets kinda silly to me. It doesn't feel like an achievement or a cool acquisition but it becomes a gimmick or a minimum requirement.

    This, regardless of anything you might feel about it, is simply a gimmick build. I'm not a fan. And just because it would be technically possible, doesn't mean it should be done. Now I know that some people have different opinions on that and that's cool, but for me it's clearly an undesirable playstyle. Of course I already question that someone would be able to have 10 customized amulets like this.

    Could be a matter of style but I always have the brakes on when it comes to handing out magic items as rewards because if people have access to them too quickly they become a given and not something that is exciting anymore. That's just my view on it.

  7. #97
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    @Z'ha'dum

    I agree somewhat - and there's a place for low-magic campaigns too - but the kind of special magic you're referring to is (to me) essentially artifacts.

    But a +1 dagger? That's just a really sharp knife, nothing special about it.

  8. #98
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    There's also the design of the game to consider. DnD 3rd ed, 3.5 and Pathfinder all assume a progression of equipment to match level progression. A 10th level character is assumed to have around 60k gp of gear. The adventures are written around it, but beyond that that challenges, the monsters assume it. A CR10 creature attacking a 10th level fighter who doesn't have his magic full plate, ring of protection, amulet of natural armour and physically boosting belt hits significantly more often. Equally, without his magic sword that fighter misses more often. This effectively boosts the CR of that opponent by a margin that is potentially quite significant.

    Now, you may disagree with the design principle, and low magic games do indeed have a place. But if that's what you as a gm are doing within those game systems you need to actively modify opponents to account for it as well, not use them stock straight out of the bestiary. A dragon is a much more dangerous adversary when you can't magically fly, have energy resistance, deal with their high AC or boost your own to counteract their high STR

  9. #99
    Member Z'ha'dum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davross View Post
    There's also the design of the game to consider. DnD 3rd ed, 3.5 and Pathfinder all assume a progression of equipment to match level progression. A 10th level character is assumed to have around 60k gp of gear. The adventures are written around it, but beyond that that challenges, the monsters assume it. A CR10 creature attacking a 10th level fighter who doesn't have his magic full plate, ring of protection, amulet of natural armour and physically boosting belt hits significantly more often. Equally, without his magic sword that fighter misses more often. This effectively boosts the CR of that opponent by a margin that is potentially quite significant.

    Now, you may disagree with the design principle, and low magic games do indeed have a place. But if that's what you as a gm are doing within those game systems you need to actively modify opponents to account for it as well, not use them stock straight out of the bestiary. A dragon is a much more dangerous adversary when you can't magically fly, have energy resistance, deal with their high AC or boost your own to counteract their high STR
    You're right and I do that. Listen, everybody should play the way they like in the end. I do want to make that clear, but in a video game there's less room to adapt things as you do in a tabletop game.

    But even in the situation as your describe I generally found that a +3 weapon and armour set can go a long way. In my campaigns (and those of fellow DMs where I was the player) we had an expression for this. Whenever you'd run into one of these people with lots of magic items and someone would do a detect magic spell on them, we'd say that "they light up like a christmas tree". This would be the situation for example if a new player came from another group and wanted to play the same character they had in the other group for example. I just made sure that these situations were adapted. I also do not feel the same about +1 weapons being common items, however, I fully realise that this is my view on the matter and not something caught in rules. It also doesn't mean people didn't get more powerful items. Hell, I've dealt with artifacts and all that but I did make it a point that these things were not trivialised. To me, magic powers and items shouldn't be trivial elements in the game. So yeah I actively adapt things and my players know that when they find out there's a dragon somewhere that it would be wise to first find out about it and how strong and old it is, because if they just go there they might not survive. That's tabletop of course and you have more freedom there to adapt encounters and gearing alike.

    Now in computer games, generally, once combat starts you cannot swap your gear (aside from swapping weapon sets). The reason for this usually is to limit certain excesses that players might come up with. If in this game you can just do all kinds of things and swap gear around will paused during combat, I would find that a weakness in the game system. At the same time I can live with it because I can simply choose not to use it. Of course I get that if you have 10 amulets that you can swap one for another but if this game allows you to swap items while combat is paused or even as an action then it would indeed be the first game that I'm aware of that allows this sort of thing.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to convince people but just clarify my stance on this. I'm sure that the game developers aren't gonna listen to me just cause I insisted on a point but I do appreciate you guys for sharing your ideas and defending them. It certainly gave me something to think about and I do not feel the need to take options away from other players no matter how odd they might strike me. I certainly try to take into account that I might be the odd one out here ;)
    Last edited by Z'ha'dum; 02-11-2018 at 01:03 AM.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Pathfinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'ha'dum View Post
    You're right and I do that. Listen, everybody should play the way they like in the end. I do want to make that clear, but in a video game there's less room to adapt things as you do in a tabletop game.
    I am pretty much in same school with you. What I mean is: I play in kind of long campaign (around 20 year now) using Pathfinder but start with AD&D 2:nd edition. World is Birthright and my character is level 6 now. We have encountered some more or less powerfull items (like Paladin's holy sword, our quest were return it for him, it was stolen from his father when his dad was killed in a war) but I have only few magical item (medium armour +2AC +2 Stealth, Blood ring +3hp and 1 regency point, dwarf "reliq" helmet 1x day 10min: fire proof + flame for weapon [+2 dmg]) rest are master work items or regular.
    I do have a province (so I can use "Herr" in my name bit like baron). Naturally I have some powers from my blood heritage (can not drown normally, +4vs water based attack rolls, can allways route back if once moved in one path (and can navigate [ship] even eyes closed) and greater heal [2d6 + 2x level healing, blindness, disease, paralyze, poison cure 1x day])

    In Baldur's Gate I guess I liked most for long game and low levels (around 6-8) human(oid) is good opponent, you do not need allways magical monsters.

    I think in a way if we want to we can choose in Pathfinder Kingmaker some not so common, let's say Rapier and choose only use these. So our companions will have more special and magical items and we use only what fit for us. But yes, in long run there will be times when you just need that magic, spells and items. Or you just can not do certain things (like hit that monster or get some things done).

    But thinking of most people it is better that we can see +3 items even before there are level 10 companions/PC allso quite many people do not know how to "min/max" so they most likely need these "tons of" potions, scrolls and mighty items.
    "Road to the man's heart go through the chest"

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