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  1. #11
    Senior Member Pathfinder's Avatar
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    One thing what came to my mind is: are there "coup de grace" around?

    What I mean is: if PC or bunch of NPC's happen to find helpless victim (let it be camp where guard is sleeping, single enemy knocked out, someone under some spell, - HP but not dead yet or something simular) can they try to kill in "one hit" kind of action IF they make the certain roll to success? So instead of, let's say level 10 barbarian with 100HP can not say "oh, I will just pretend to sleep and let this poor mage hit me first 10 times with his dagger without moving then I just punch him in face and knock him out".
    "Road to the man's heart go through the chest"

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Pathfinder View Post
    ... web to prevent enemies to move, then maybe grease and add torch => watch them burn...
    Off Topic, but: grease isn't flameable, by RAW. If your GM is cool with it, more power to you.

    On Topic:
    I like the way we gain insight into the development of this game. The points raised above and changes to the Pathfinder rules described make sense to me.

    Trip: Not being able to fight from prone sounds like it solves a lot of programming/animating issues, so that's fine. I hope that standing up is provoking AoO. You can't keep an enemy in Trip-lock anyway because you can't trip someone trying to stand up from prone.

    Dirty Tricks and Disarm as Dirty Trick-like ability: Sounds nice and good.

    Bull rush, Drag, Reposition, Overrun: Again, the points raised and solutions talked about sound good, except for Bull rush. I concur with the others that this maneuver is something you should aim to have in the game.

    Grapple: Oh thank Desna no grapple for the PC's. I mean, yeah, it's too bad for the Monk-players, the one class most likely to successfully grapple, but they still have stunning fist and such.

    Sunder: Maybe you could implement sunder as a Dirty Trick just like Disarm. ... Though that still doesn't make it easy to programm and find a UI for it. So maybe it really is best to leave it out.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    @Perpetual Nothing - Your post has been assimilated. I have added your additional information to my master list in the General information forum.

  4. #14
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    Amazingly insightful post as usual, thank you Perpetual Nothing for sharing your design approach with us!

    There's a lot to like but I agree with some of the above posters that Sunder seems to warrant a similar implementation to Disarm. If you wish to avoid dealing with object HP, perhaps a stacking -1 debuff per successful attempt could be used instead? Or modify it to work same as Disarm but vs armor.

    Can there perhaps be an option for a tripped character to stay prone (and take no actions or a total defense action) until the threat is gone rather than being forced to stand up and eat an AOO?

    I wonder why Overrun has to be a feat - does it mean it will auto-succeed upon use? Otherwise if d20 roll is involved then why not let everyone do it? Or everyone can do it with an AOO but the feat will prevent it?

    Bull Rush/Drag/Reposition seem to be variation of the same thing to me. The only remark I will make is that I still have the fondest memories of Sulik from Fallout 2 shoving opponents across the screen with a powered sledge :P but perhaps in an RTwP system it's indeed best to leave them out.

    Will the game have a combat engagement system similar to PoE? If yes then looks like a major step to implement grappling would be to prevent disengaging when grappled...

  5. #15
    Maybe I'm just crazy- but I've never built a Fighter to use combat maneuvers. XD I'm too busy getting other feats for dps. I very much appreciate the effort to involve all the rules though!!! You guys are awesome!!!!

  6. #16
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    @Perpetual Nothing:

    I'd like to add my support for the notion of implementing both disarm and sunder through debuffs; additionally I have a suggestion for grapple. Although this approach deviates from the rules as written for pen-and-paper, I think not having these options is a bigger negative than not implementing them in all their exacting glory. And furthermore it makes martial builds (and especially fighters and monks) more diverse.

    Disarm
    A creature can re-arm itself as a move action (no need to be "at" the weapon, a move action is enough). Greater Disarm (feat) would require standard action to re-arm. Essentially this is "dirty trick" for disarming.

    Sunder
    A creature takes -2 to attack, damage, and AC; automatically recovers after 2 rounds. Greater Sunder (feat) increases the penalty to -4 and recovery takes 4 rounds. Attack and damage penalty only applies if wielding manufactured weapons; AC penalty only applies if wearing armor.

    Grapple
    Grappling could fulfill the role that "taunting" takes in MMORPGs like WoW. The mechanics would work as follows: when a creature (A) grapples another (B), they both get the entangled condition and the initiator can only make 1 attack a round. The other creature can attack normally (other than the effects of being entangled). Each round the grappler (A) needs to maintain the grapple (an automatic check) but may chose to end the grapple voluntarily. Effectively the grappled creature (B) takes a relatively minor debuff and it cannot move; in exchange the grappler (A) needs to maintain the grapple and is limited to 1 attack a round, (A) can move, but doing so ends the grapple. Greater Grapple (feat) allows the grappler (A) to make a 2nd attack each round.

    This simplifies away a lot of the complexities but gives a meaningful purpose to grappling.

    (Optionally you may include that the grappler (A) and possibly the grappled creature (B) cannot use two-handed weapons; but I wouldn't consider that essential to the implementation.)

    ...

    A secondary question, irrespective of whether grappling is implemented - you mention that monster-based grabs may make it into the game. Does that mean that PCs that can shape shift (e.g. druids), or can cast summon spells (or polymorph or beast shape), can summon or turn into a monster that has a grab ability?

  7. #17
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    To Pathfinder: That’s what I meant when I said “(Obsidian Flow?)”. That’s a spell that creates a somewhat dangerous difficult terrain; it was the first one to come to my mind since I’ve seen it recently in one of my tabletop games.

    To Esotericist: Yeah, what I meant about bull rush being lower on our list of priorities is that we want to make “dangerous” terrain spells before we make Bull Rush so that we may test it properly in more situations.

    To Victus_Shanks: Standing up does provoke attacks of opportunity, although there are abilities that allow you to avoid it.
    Disarm with rounds based on the success, like in dirty trick sound ok, but will require some tests. The same with sunder. I think that abstracting from rules in this way is ok – if you cannot provide something as is, but can offer this option with abstraction.

    About grabs - I meant more Constrict, Swallow Whole and Engulf’s than grabs, but yeah, you are right, you will roll you CMB or Escape use of your mobility skill. Black Tentacles will work similarly – more like a really special entangle.

    To Grifta: Trip works quite well now since AoOs are not as scary as most people think they are. But that animation is clearly just suitable for monk’s Whirlwind Attack.

    To Dragao_Preto: We want some of them to have combos, but we will not implement all combos from the tabletop. For example, cause we do not know about some of them and some of them are house rules. Currently, we hadn’t yet made them, but have some tests planned. Cannot promise anything though.

    To Pathfinder: We want Coup de Grace, but we may kinda nerf it depending on the tests. Currently, it seems far more dangerous than in tabletop, since possibilities for its use are encountered more often in CRPG, at least in my experience.

    To Frazzle_Running: But Web is! Yeah, I am currently leaning towards implementation of both disarm and sunder in a fashion similar to dirty tricks.

    To Stratagemini: That sounds unnecessary threatening. “Your post has been assimilated; you will soon be assimilated too.” Thanks for your work on the compilation.

    To CyberMephit: Yeah, I am thinking now about sunder and disarm. My current line of thought is to make them similar in mechanics to dirty tricks (i.e., one round, plus one round for every 5 more than targets CMD). With weapons/armor giving bonuses to your CMD against them based on its enhancement and properties. And with this sunder/disarm combined into one feat chain separate from dirty tricks to compensate for their limitations. That’s not a solid design yet though, just thoughts. There can be some problems along the line, especially with removing weapons from hands of certain monsters – some of them can be modeled with weapon in hand already, so maybe we will need to reduce damage/attack without actually removing the weapon.

    We may implement an option to stay prone – but that option seems very inconvenient to use. I.e., we cannot let you decide that for every instance of you falling prone. It will be more like an option for a character that you either switch on or off, like fighting defensively.

    We have a melee engagement system, but it’s different in some ways. Most problems from grapple stem from visualizing it and controlling it though.

    To thorsdragon: Btw I always used other classes for it too. Last one was magus with the build I called KravMagus. Although I just like to play casters too much.

    To HenriHakl: I am thinking more about making sunder different actions – i.e., “Sunder Armor” and “Sunder Shield” and with different specifics, but along those lines, yeah. Grapple is still out though – visualization is the most complicated part, and there is a possibility that entangle will be applicable through dirty tricks.

    About the secondary question - that depends on specifics of wild shape, but probably yes. We hadn’t started working on druid yet though. Although, again mostly for constricts and so on.
    Last edited by Perpetual Nothing; 09-01-2017 at 01:19 PM.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perpetual Nothing View Post
    To Pathfinder: We want Coup de Grace, but we may kinda nerf it depending on the tests. Currently, it seems far more dangerous than in tabletop, since possibilities for its use are encountered more often in CRPG, at least in my experience.

    To Stratagemini: That sounds unnecessary threatening. “Your post has been assimilated; you will soon be assimilated too.” Thanks for your work on the compilation.
    I suppose the Borg is somewhat threatening. This post has also been assimilated, by the way.

    With regard to Coup de Gras, have you thought about eliminating the mandatory fort save for Massive damage at the end? I'll admit that that happens to be my particular house rule, but I find it works well balance-wise.

  9. #19
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perpetual Nothing View Post
    To HenriHakl: Grapple is still out though – visualization is the most complicated part, and there is a possibility that entangle will be applicable through dirty tricks.
    It's true dirty trick gives entangle - but dirty trick's entangle is countered by a move action; whereas grapple is more of specialist entangle. That said... I don't think it is necessary to go over-the-top with the relevant animation - if entangled already has some form of "restricted" animation cycle on creatures then that is all you'd need. Whether it really needs a special animation (versus a symbolic representation perhaps) is another question.

  10. #20
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    To Stratagemini: Yeah, I was thinking about removing fort save and maybe requiring some form of an attack roll. Otherwise just imagine a fight with ghouls on PC. You enter the combat, give some commands on pause, and then in 10 seconds your fighter in full plate with a ton of hp just dies. Good initiative ghoul, attack of a flat footed fighter, paralyze, bad save, coup de grace. Sometimes that can be justified, but the amount of the situations where coup de grace is possible is actually far higher than in tabletop.

    In tabletop GM might think “Yeah since it goes so wrong – ghouls will capture them.” They will wake up in a cage in an underground ghoul city.” Or GM might think “Yeah, the ghoul will not coup de grace him because ghouls are smart and he considers not paralyzed enemies more of threat.” Or just not coup de grace to escape the attack of opportunity. But in CRPG we cannot consider every situation, and coup de graces will be seen far more often. Keeping them just as deadly as they are in tabletop might be a bit too harsh.

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