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  1. #21
    Member Mirandel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draxxil View Post
    Yes warnings are good and we have some but u cant exspect a warning sign everytime.
    And u can use stealth to scout the Area and i even think its way to easy for the player to scout ahed u can see enemies while they dont even react to you. They should attack or react immediately if u are in sigth of them so stealth would have much more use then now.
    You can not "scout ahead" a random encounter. Or a triggered enemy. And the moment you are under attack the only option is to fight - you can not run away. You can not "talk your way out" either.

    This is the problem, not the difficulty itself. Take first three encounters people are complaining about. Spiders - why Boken, that sends you there, does not tell you about torches? Or, even better, gives you some? Would help a lot.
    Now werewolves - if it's those with the quest, sure locals have to know about missing people and werewolves tracks? Why nobody says a thing? A simple "believe me, you are not ready for it" from Oleg would help already.
    Leach (the skull) - considering the trail of dead bodies we already left behind, a few more bodies it's not much of a warning. Should it be a PnP session DM would give you more - something about suspicious and spooky atmosphere. In CRPG you have an example of DAO (whith a similar quest), but even a simple comment from one of your companion, or - even simpler! - a diary on one of the bodies with something "we found a camp and wanted to stay there, but Jonson said he has a bad feeling about it. Who cares! We just killed a dragon and we are the scariest creatures in the woods for now" - to show the level of the party that was killed and to indicate there is something wrong with this place - that would help a lot.
    All we need is warnings at the right time - and no need to tune anything.

    Because right now it does look like the game is built around reload feature.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Naliamegod View Post
    Its brutal, but that is a style some people like and isn't too far off from how it works in tabletop form.
    It's night and day from Tabletop. Tabletop has a DM that exercises their judgement to adapt the experience to the current needs of the party, and set aside the rules if theyre getting in the way of the story. Any DM that regularly leads their low level players into a situation they cant handle and results in everyone dying wont have players for very long.

    I enjoy being able to to wander into more challenging content in a reloadable computer game, but focusing on fidelity to a ruleset without keeping in mind the human referee that makes the rules work is not a recipe for fun.
    Last edited by Gelatinous Noob; 09-29-2018 at 06:00 PM.

  3. #23
    At the moment, the game isnt hard because of the enemy, but because the AI doesnt work for companions.
    I die alot, but when i retry with more micromanagement, i dont. Also failing a trying again is fun.
    I worry making enemies easier, is avoiding fixing the real problems by fixing their symptoms?

    The early game would be easier if its nerfed, or if the bugs and AI is fixed. but it doesnt need both, and only one of those things fixes the whole game.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Naliamegod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Noob View Post
    It's night and day from Tabletop. Tabletop has a DM that exercises their judgement to adapt the experience to the current needs of the party, and set aside the rules if theyre getting in the way of the story. Any DM that regularly leads their low level players into a situation they cant handle and results in everyone dying wont have players for very long.

    I enjoy being able to to wander into more challenging content in a reloadable computer game, but focusing on fidelity to a ruleset without keeping in mind the human referee that makes the rules work is not a recipe for fun.
    I've been playing Hells Rebels and there are situations in that campaign that make the stuff in this game look tame. That AP can straight up screw a party if they aren't prepared for anything and Hell's Rebels is not unique in that regard. Pathfinder official campaigns can be absurdly brutal by design.

  5. #25
    Difficulty is putting something in game that you must counter with skill and strategy not the save and reload mambo hoping for crits (or to not be crit). Gimping the fuck out of the story companions and littering an Act where the player is intended to be between 2-5 with CR6+ encounters of min max optimized enemies is not difficulty its just poor design and should you happen to beat them enjoy the paltry nerfed exp they grant you.

    Sycamore has an advertised "stay away" CR14 fight with a floating skull (reload mambo + electricity resist wand + a lot of patience will solve it), an intended fight with a CR6 wolf and 5 CR1 wolfs with trip attacks, a group of 4 sleeping bandits who have the same AC asleep as awake who each have perfectly optimized stats and feats min maxing offense and party wide CC meanwhile the companion characters are devoid of the basic stats and feats to not be shite at everything.

    The temple of the elk took the CR4 Dire Boar and decided to give it more damage, more ac, and more HP along with the same treatment for the wolves. I found the Treantbear to be the easiest of the bunch.

    There's a nice little wererat cave with 3 lvl 8 min maxed enemies. 2 Rogues with 3 attacks per round (Dual Wield + Bite) at +15 to hit with 4d6 sneak attack damage on all attacks because now everything counts as flanking even if your back is to a wall and 26 AC (that's right just as much AC as your plate laden tower shield carrying fighter) . And an Alchemist who opens with Displacement and has some innate power to not provoke AOOs when SPAMMING his 4d6 bombs.

    This wonderful vacation spot in Act 1 has a potential for 28D6 damage per round (on normal difficulty) at egregious bonuses with the defenses of a Plate tank carrying a tower shield without all those pesky negatives. And if you even think about trying to use strategy like stealth past they spot you every time, if you happen to have a multi round vanish on a character with +12 perception like I do they are mystically invisible until agroed. Reload 20 times if you like hoping for a better spot check the answer is "no such thing as ambushing the ambush".

    Picture of wererat rogue offense
    Picture of wererat rogue defense

    Holy shit encounters are a part of CRPGS the idea is for you to get the fk out of dodge and come back. But the sheer amount of these encounters in the first fkn act intended for lvls 2-5 is staggering on the top of them telling you to "Hurry up or you will lose based on time"

    Before you "git gud" sons of goblins come out of the woodworks I defeated all the above but the Wererats including the Shambler, and the Giant Troll I am pretty sure my party who is 3300xp away from 5 isn't equipped for the wererats and I am not convinced I will at lvl 5 either.
    Last edited by malvolio.davis@gmail.com; 09-30-2018 at 05:28 AM.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Naliamegod View Post
    I've been playing Hells Rebels and there are situations in that campaign that make the stuff in this game look tame. That AP can straight up screw a party if they aren't prepared for anything and Hell's Rebels is not unique in that regard. Pathfinder official campaigns can be absurdly brutal by design.
    But they still have a human DM who can moderate the experience by tuning the module to their individual party. A computer AI can't do that as effectively. (I am a DM, I do not set out to kill my player's characters because that is not the point of TTRPGs. I do not treat it as a PvDM experience, because that is also not the point of TTRPGs. The TTRPG experience is creating a shared narrative, and making sure that everyone involved has fun. (That isn't to say that some players don't like hard or difficult scenarios, because I'm sure there's groups out there who do... I've even played with a DM or two who were all about PvDM style games - needless to stay, I did not stick around.)

    This is a CRPG. Comparing it to a TTRPG is like comparing apples to oranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by malvolio.davis@gmail.com View Post
    Difficulty is putting something in game that you must counter with skill and strategy not the save and reload mambo hoping for crits (or to not be crit). Gimping the fuck out of the story companions and littering an Act where the player is intended to be between 2-5 with CR6+ encounters of min max optimized enemies is not difficulty its just poor design and should you happen to beat them enjoy the paltry nerfed exp they grant you.

    Sycamore has an advertised "stay away" CR14 fight with a floating skull (reload mambo + electricity resist wand + a lot of patience will solve it), an intended fight with a CR6 wolf and 5 CR1 wolfs with trip attacks, a group of 4 sleeping bandits who have the same AC asleep as awake who each have perfectly optimized stats and feats min maxing offense and party wide CC meanwhile the companion characters are devoid of the basic stats and feats to not be shite at everything.

    The temple of the elk took the CR4 Dire Boar and decided to give it more damage, more ac, and more HP along with the same treatment for the wolves. I found the Treantbear to be the easiest of the bunch.

    There's a nice little wererat cave with 3 lvl 8 min maxed enemies. 2 Rogues with 3 attacks per round (Dual Wield + Bite) at +15 to hit with 4d6 sneak attack damage on all attacks because now everything counts as flanking even if your back is to a wall and 26 AC (that's right just as much AC as your plate laden tower shield carrying fighter) . And an Alchemist who opens with Displacement and has some innate power to not provoke AOOs when SPAMMING his 4d6 bombs.

    This wonderful vacation spot in Act 1 has a potential for 28D6 damage per round (on normal difficulty) at egregious bonuses with the defenses of a Plate tank carrying a tower shield without all those pesky negatives. And if you even think about trying to use strategy like stealth past they spot you every time, if you happen to have a multi round vanish on a character with +12 perception like I do they are mystically invisible until agroed. Reload 20 times if you like hoping for a better spot check the answer is "no such thing as ambushing the ambush".

    Picture of wererat rogue offense
    Picture of wererat rogue defense

    Holy shit encounters are a part of CRPGS the idea is for you to get the fk out of dodge and come back. But the sheer amount of these encounters in the first fkn act intended for lvls 2-5 is staggering on the top of them telling you to "Hurry up or you will lose based on time"

    Before you "git gud" sons of goblins come out of the woodworks I defeated all the above but the Wererats including the Shambler, and the Giant Troll I am pretty sure my party who is 3300xp away from 5 isn't equipped for the wererats and I am not convinced I will at lvl 5 either.
    This guy hits the nail right on the head. The design of this game is inherently imbalanced towards the NPCs/AI. A real DM would not put mix/max NPCs and monsters against a party designed by novices... And that's the experience people new to CRPGs are getting. It's frustrating at times.

    Fortunately there is the option to turn the difficulty right down. Which is what I have done. I'm here to enjoy a great story, kick some monster butts, and have fun - not pound my head against a save scumming routine just to get somewhere.

    (My partner has often complained about how difficult Normal mode is, and he's not one to turn difficulty down when faced with a challenge. As far as I know he still hasn't turned it down, but he has decided to take a break... Which doesn't bode well for him continuing to play it. He's been finding it more frustrating than I have - my frustrations are at least based around bugs, the rest system, and the in game deadlines... And that one fight that I had to sit and read a book through because of way high ACs on both parties in a duel, some of you will know which one I mean.)

    Z72.

  7. #27
    Honestly if they fix all the parts that aren't working correctly then the difficulty is probably fine.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by evelynstarshine View Post
    At the moment, the game isnt hard because of the enemy, but because the AI doesnt work for companions.
    I die alot, but when i retry with more micromanagement, i dont. Also failing a trying again is fun.
    I worry making enemies easier, is avoiding fixing the real problems by fixing their symptoms?

    The early game would be easier if its nerfed, or if the bugs and AI is fixed. but it doesnt need both, and only one of those things fixes the whole game.
    Not trying to chest thump at all--I'm only playing the game on normal difficulty, but so far the early game is a breeze on normal through level 5. I'm really not getting comments like this. How much AI do you need to park your tanks in front of a blob of enemies, flank with your dps and micro them a bit, and situationally call for a spell from the back line? RTwP games like this are not difficult if played on the difficulty they were designed around (normal), and at an encounter level within reach of the party.

    Yes, you can get in over your head if you aggressively pursue higher level content, but just following the basic quest line has resulted in no particularly taxing challenges thus far. That said, Im playing the game after several patches which may have tweaked some stuff from the initial release.

    I realize opinions on this might vary, but it would be nice if we could limit claims about the difficulty to the setting it was designed around. Harder difficulty settings are supposed to be more challenging to play, so observing that they are in fact, more challenging, requiring greater effort and more deliberate party/character builds is kind of pointless.
    Last edited by Gelatinous Noob; 09-30-2018 at 04:28 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Noob View Post
    Not trying to chest thump at all--I'm only playing the game on normal difficulty, but so far the early game is a breeze on normal through level 5. I'm really not getting comments like this. How much AI do you need to park your tanks in front of a blob of enemies, flank with your dps and micro them a bit, and situationally call for a spell from the back line? RTwP games like this are not difficult if played on the difficulty they were designed around (normal), and at an encounter level within reach of the party.

    Yes, you can get in over your head if you aggressively pursue higher level content, but just following the basic quest line has resulted in no particularly taxing challenges thus far. That said, Im playing the game after several patches which may have tweaked some stuff from the initial release.

    I realize opinions on this might vary, but it would be nice if we could limit claims about the difficulty to the setting it was designed around. Harder difficulty settings are supposed to be more challenging to play, so observing that they are in fact, more challenging, requiring greater effort and more deliberate party/character builds is kind of pointless.
    This!

    I'm noticing most complaints are either people expecting a pure PnP port or people not familiar with the game mechanics.

    I'm at level 11 now, out of spells, and unable to rest and still walking through encounters.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Amardarial View Post
    I'm noticing most complaints are either people expecting a pure PnP port or people not familiar with the game mechanics.
    In other words, a large chunk of their customer base. A lot of people were brought here by their tabletop experiences or by fond memories of the old Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Planescape Torment games, which ran on totally different mechanics. So most people arrived with expectations they would either be getting something similar to a tabletop experience, or not knowing the mechanics, or both.

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