Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 16
  1. #1

    Ethical Issues with Troll Dialog [SPOILERS]

    I really dislike that the "chaotic" option is making peace with the trolls and letting him live as a vassal to your barony. You prevent further bloodshed, protect the barony citizens, and quite legally create peace by accepting an oath of fealty. How is that chaotic? It seems to me that should be LAWFUL thing to do.

    The Lawful Good and Lawful Evil options both had the same conclusions, albeit for different reasons. That is just wrong.

    Similar thing with Bartholomew and his tortured prisoner. A Lawful Good person would be OK with him continuing to own a slave that he tortures regularly? How is that even remotely a good guy thing to do? I can't imagine a paladin, a paragon of virtue and what is right, just shrugging and going "heh, law's the law". There should have at least been an option, like "I will properly change the law to make this illegal as it is immoral and should not be tolerated."

    It also bothered me that Ekun was so racist within the game universe that he couldn't accept a peaceful solution with Hargulk and permanently left the party because of it. He seemed a nicer guy than that.

    In general, I feel it is wrong that the so-called "lawful good" option is "You are a monster so I kill you now." Lawful good should always be seeking the peaceful solution that works for everyone and only resorting to violence when necessary.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    61
    I think that this point of view is the D&D way to see the LG alignment. It's usually what I do when I play a lawful good character. Especially a paladin, who is kind of "magically" good.

    But in pathfinder, law is kind of evil. "THE" lawful god is Asmodeus, And many lawful god are kind of ok with him. Racism in pathfinder is more Lawful Evil and not just Evil.

  3. #3
    I agree. Most lawful options tend towards more evil than good in this game, even if they are labelled neutral or good. The game tends to portray 'lawful good' characters as Judge Dredd, with murder first and ask questions later mentality.

  4. #4
    I had different plot outcome in my playthru so far, so hard to speak precisely about the details when I didn't have precisely those situations, allowing ongoing scientific torture indicated as Lawful Good impact sounds most dubious of the two IMHO. Alot of this sounds like complaints of lack of broader options, which isn't strictly about alignment, or multiple choices could plausibly quailfy as same alignment, but OP's statements like "The Lawful Good and Lawful Evil options both had the same conclusions, albeit for different reasons. That is just wrong. " and inferring Ekun's "racism" for not accepting peaceful solution seems pretty unfounded. Finishing with "lawful good should be...." is backwards thinking, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Paizo's Golarion setting but this is a fictional concept that has nothing to do with your real world views, so talking about it you need to educate yourself on their usage of it.

  5. #5
    Why would lawful person even if good let member of evil race to be in their kingdom, especially if said member send his people to attack your kingdom and people.Lawful characters are concerned with order and law, meaning if you commit murder even if you had sympathetic reason lawful good will still convict you (unless law says otherwise) but will be more lenient than 2 other lawful alignments. While chaotic characters tend to follow own whims even if they don't align with that of rest of society (they tend to be open minded while lawful are more close minded), so they may blew off view monsters vs people view that lawful characters would likely have.

    No wonder Ekun left, you pretty much just pissed on whole concept of justice in front of lawful good character, not to mention potentially endangered own subjects by being reckless (from lawfuls character point of view) and taking in members of an evil race that moments ago was attacking your kindgdom and killed his family.I doubt Ekun would have a problem with good aligned member of evil race just as Keldorn (LG) from BG 2 had no problem with Drizzt despite hating on Viconia (partly for being drow and partly because of her evil attitude).

    Lawful good isn't necessarily interested in peace with everyone, Lawful good may launch crusade against evil for an example (they are probably least likely to tolerate evil character of all good alignments) and is very interested in delivering justice (as pretty much any lawful character) to evil-doers.

  6. #6
    Member Mirandel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    38
    The "why" is simple - because there is no separate decisions for both scales in the game, it was not included. You can not make only good/evil or chaotic\lawful choice. Hence, any lawful decision will be the same for LG, LN and LE.

    As for Ekun... Sorry for such a cliche, but I I'd like to see you make peace with someone who murdered your family in front of you and obliterated your home.

  7. #7
    FYI, in different plot route,
    Ekun *does* grudgingly accept you letting Hargulka's children free, which isn't consistent with him being "evil racist".
    Paizo's pantheon has Good (demi)gods whose theme is vengeance and executions, so Ekun seeking vengeance is not "anti Good" in Pathfinder. His whole reason for working with you was caught up in that, so if you do the opposite of what his goal was, of course he would leave, why not? What reason would he have to continue being your lackey? His family is dead, and if you ignore their murder, why does he care to serve you?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ottenhoffj@yahoo.com View Post
    I really dislike that the "chaotic" option is making peace with the trolls and letting him live as a vassal to your barony. You prevent further bloodshed, protect the barony citizens, and quite legally create peace by accepting an oath of fealty. How is that chaotic? It seems to me that should be LAWFUL thing to do.
    Because this is mercy before justice. Amnesty (mercy) is chaotic because it prevents the delinquent rom receiving his proper punishment for his deeds. This is a pragmatic solution rather than a just one.

    Quote Originally Posted by ottenhoffj@yahoo.com View Post
    Similar thing with Bartholomew and his tortured prisoner. A Lawful Good person would be OK with him continuing to own a slave that he tortures regularly? How is that even remotely a good guy thing to do?
    It is clearly stated that Bartholomew's experiments are morally doubtable but legal. Therefore it is lawful evil or lawful neutral, depending on the intention (are his experiments just egoistic or to help others?). In the later game, Bartholomew gets quite some trouble for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by markvdbij@hotmail.com View Post
    I agree. Most lawful options tend towards more evil than good in this game, even if they are labelled neutral or good. The game tends to portray 'lawful good' characters as Judge Dredd, with murder first and ask questions later mentality.
    It is hard to put definitions of good and evil as welll as lawful and chaotic into a single word, but when it comes down to that: "evil" is an egoistic attitude which centers personal profit while a "good" attitude is connected to selflessness. "Lawful" is sticking to the word either the law or the promise (deal is deal) you gave while "chaotic" is doing what seems right to you; this could also be a lawful deed if the law is on your side.
    There are also "lawful stupid" and "chaotic mad" folks, but mainly I would say that a hedgefond manager is lawful evil because he makes profit on other people's cost but always according to the law.
    Last edited by Nikioko; 11-15-2018 at 06:13 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Quandary View Post
    FYI, in different plot route,
    Ekun *does* grudgingly accept you letting Hargulka's children free, which isn't consistent with him being "evil racist".
    Paizo's pantheon has Good (demi)gods whose theme is vengeance and executions, so Ekun seeking vengeance is not "anti Good" in Pathfinder. His whole reason for working with you was caught up in that, so if you do the opposite of what his goal was, of course he would leave, why not? What reason would he have to continue being your lackey? His family is dead, and if you ignore their murder, why does he care to serve you?
    Well, he is kinda racist (not nessecairly evil one) as he seems to deem one race inferior at least morally to others. The issue is that saying "X race is evil" isn't invalid statment in pathfinder considering that some races have clear cut tendency to be evil with only rare cases being exceptions to the rule.
    Spoiler:
    .

  10. #10
    OFF-TOPIC: I have only posted here 4 times, but after 3rd post, I discovered I couldn't post or reply in General/Technical forums (haven't tested others besides those and here), which seems to be due to Permissions for those (displayed at bottom of page). When I actually try to reply there, it tells me I have been permanently banned, but I suspect that isn't the case, it is just permissions issue with "manual" user registration process that didn't approve me "across the board" for all sub-forums. I used "Contact Us" form twice to no effect, and attempts to PM Kotarsis the admin(?) who posted "Unable to post on forums?" sticky-thread failed to 100% full PM in-box on his end.

    How to resolve this?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •