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  1. #1

    Alignment Tagged Dialog

    What I'd really, really, really like to see is some indication as to the alignment changes you'll get when you chose a specific dialog option. While watching the two stream/demos of the game I noticed that while talking to NPCs there's a possibility that your dialog choices will start moving your alignment in different ways. Now that's cool and something to be expected but there's a problem. You never know what type of alignment change you'll get until after you make your choice.

    A couple of the changes in the demo left me going, “Huh? That was a Neutral Good statement? And that one was Lawful Evil? Really?” Now I have no problem with dialog changing alignment. The problem is you really have no idea what is considered Good or Neutral or Lawful or Chaotic until after you've made your choice and there's nothing you can do about it.

    Alignment should be a conscious choice not an “Oops I didn't mean that.” I believe that there should be two type of dialog. Clearly labeled alignment dialog and totally non-aligned/neutral dialog that won't shift you at all. I'm talking about something like how Dragon Age II's or Inquisition's dialog wheels had icons that let you know the 'flavor' of the dialog you're choosing.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    I think BK said that there'll be an option to show it. However, from what I understood, is yes it'll make the alignment move, but just a little on the graph. So if you infrequently make evil choice, but usually make good ones, you'll still be good.

  3. #3
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    The problem will be that the dev's idea of good and evil will be different from yours and mine. I sympathise, but I'd prefer not to know. Otherwise I'm basing my choices on what makes my character good or evil. I'd prefer to just choose the options I think are best for the circumstance at the time (for the betterment of my kingdom and its subjects, or its relations with other kingdoms). Perhaps a toggle in the options menu (or as you start a new game) would be handy. That way both you and I can play the way you want.

  4. #4
    Actually, having a switch to turn the indicators on and off would be great. Thing is in other games where your relations with other NPCs is important and they don't have any indicators you can end up damaging or destroying said relationship without wanting to or trying to just because the you chose the wrong dialog.

    But yeah, having a switch in the options would let a person chose which play style they want.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Pathfinder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hopchopy@comcast.net View Post
    But yeah, having a switch in the options would let a person chose which play style they want.
    Agreed on this one. I personally really like how choices make other people and world see you different ways. Multiple choices not just one or two (naturally if there is some extremely monsterous acts that is bit different but still).
    "Road to the man's heart go through the chest"

  6. #6
    Community Manager Berserkerkitten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezeegriff View Post
    The problem will be that the dev's idea of good and evil will be different from yours and mine.
    Very true. That's something, which bothers me in lots of RPGs, where the game just decides for you that a certain decision is good and another one is evil and the moral values applied are questionable at best. But yeah, there'll be an option to show these possible alignment shifts. From what I understand, you also don't rapidly change alignments just because of a few bad dialogue choices here and there. It's a slow process and nothing like, "Whoops, I said the wrong thing twice and now I'm chaotic neutral instead of lawful good!"
    Ye cannae touch this! - Clan McHammer

  7. #7
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    I think Pillars had a good system for these sorts of things. If I remember right, they had toggles for showing what impact your choices would have (they didn't have moral alignment, but they did have "personality" alignments) and for showing what stats unlocked each dialog options (as well as optionally hiding unavailable options).

  8. #8
    Senior Member Grifta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezeegriff View Post
    The problem will be that the dev's idea of good and evil will be different from yours and mine.
    This is one of those things that every good group will discuss before getting to deep into a campaign. You, the DM, and the other players, all have to agree what it means to be "good" or "evil". Same with "lawful" or "chaotic". Basically this forum is that conversation.

    I'm trying to remember if it was Planescape Torment, or Temple of Elemental Evil that has a great set of dialogue options around this. Things along the lines of:
    1. I pledge to help you.
    2. (lie) I pledge to help you.
    3. I'm not touching that with my collapsible pole. (requires collapsible pole)
    4. Sod off.

    This is an easy example of what the OP was talking about, but basically, the ideal situation would be that each dialogue option had enough to explain the thought behind it.

    "Bandits are stealing my crops"
    1. Kill them all! Their thievery will cause starvation and untold suffering to the peasants.
    2. Kill them all! If an example is not set, then banditry may escalate.
    3. Kill them all! Show the people that my rule is not to be questioned.

    3 options with the same result, but fairly clear intentions. 1 clearly has "good intention", 3 clearly "evil", 2 is a little unclear, maybe an LN?


    The writers have tons of free time, right? ;P

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Berserkerkitten View Post
    Very true. That's something, which bothers me in lots of RPGs, where the game just decides for you that a certain decision is good and another one is evil and the moral values applied are questionable at best. But yeah, there'll be an option to show these possible alignment shifts. From what I understand, you also don't rapidly change alignments just because of a few bad dialogue choices here and there. It's a slow process and nothing like, "Whoops, I said the wrong thing twice and now I'm chaotic neutral instead of lawful good!"
    I like the idea that your choices can change your alignment. However, since several of the classes have alignment requirements it'd really be annoying if you had no idea which dialog does what. I can't tell you how happy I am that we'll have the option to turn these indicators on or off.

  10. #10
    Member Nortar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grifta View Post
    This is an easy example of what the OP was talking about, but basically, the ideal situation would be that each dialogue option had enough to explain the thought behind it.

    "Bandits are stealing my crops"
    1. Kill them all! Their thievery will cause starvation and untold suffering to the peasants.
    2. Kill them all! If an example is not set, then banditry may escalate.
    3. Kill them all! Show the people that my rule is not to be questioned.

    3 options with the same result, but fairly clear intentions. 1 clearly has "good intention", 3 clearly "evil", 2 is a little unclear, maybe an LN?
    This also is a good example of how subjective perception of good and evil could be.
    I, for example, see no differences between 2 and 3.
    In both cases it's a LN act of enforcing the law by punishing criminals.
    And punishment is severe enough to ensure there won't be any more bandits, you just explain it in different words.

    In order to be "clearly evil", it should to be something like that:
    "Even though these bandits are obviously just starving peasants, I'll kill them all just because I'm bored today."

    So, if there is no difference in outcome, I would be glad to stick to alightment I want my main-character to have, by being able to see marks in the dialog.

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