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  1. #21
    I didn't know about the robes, and the monk class is probably the one I'm the less familiar with (I've basically never taken the time to take a close look at their abilities - didn't even know about the extra speed). I'm going to check that next time I play the game. From what you're writting, it seems that a monk could replace the ranged vivi (both being there to take care of backline ennemies). Also, if I was to replace the vivi with a monk, that would open up the possibility to replace the inquisitor (who's dazzling display wouldn't be as much needed) with a paladin. That's another great idea to investigate, thanks again :)

    Just two quick questions:

    1) I guess you need to regularly toggle "acrobatics" on and off, so that you can get your monk to the backline safely ?
    2) How would you rate the dps of a monk, compared to that of a rogue (sneaking, ofc) ? I guess I can try to make the calculations for myself but it never hurts to ask someone who's knowledgeable ;)

  2. #22
    Senior Member Karpophorus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    2) How would you rate the dps of a monk, compared to that of a rogue (sneaking, ofc) ? I guess I can try to make the calculations for myself but it never hurts to ask someone who's knowledgeable ;)
    The (unchained) monks flurry and other additional attacks are better as you always use highest attack bonus with highest BAB progression.
    Static boni for damage through Power Attack, Dragon Style, high strength, andwhatnot will add up to a very high and consistent output.
    In theory a rogue could do more damage, but also less as well.

  3. #23
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    1) I guess you need to regularly toggle "acrobatics" on and off, so that you can get your monk to the backline safely ?
    I almost never bothered with acrobatics. The monk AC gets high enough to be safe regardless (and you can take Combat Mobility feat if you're worried). The monk moves so fast that no enemy can chase him - basically he's out of reach too quickly so the AI loses interest in him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    2) How would you rate the dps of a monk, compared to that of a rogue (sneaking, ofc) ? I guess I can try to make the calculations for myself but it never hurts to ask someone who's knowledgeable ;)
    A rogue specialized in DPS (i.e. the complete two-weapon-fighting feat chain) will consistently out-damage everybody in the majority of circumstances if he gets to sneak attack. Sneak attack is of course not a given when you solo the backline.

    A monk gets more attacks than a normal class, comparable to two-weapon specialist, depending on the level. The monk's attacks are mostly at full BAB.

    E.g. level 12 (without stat/items)

    Monk flurry: 12 / 12 / 12 / 7 / 2

    TWF rogue: 9 / 9 / 4 / 4

    Monk style strike: at level 5 and every few levels thereafter the monk can pick a style strike - these can do various things, depending on what you need. I much enjoyed the tripping strike; which essentially is a free trip attempt when doing a flurry. There are other strikes that help the monk deal more damage, bypass DR, etc

    Rogue debilitating strike: the rogue has better damage from sneak attack, and his debilitating strike can effectively make his attacks count significantly higher since he can reduce enemy AC by 6 for himself at level 12.

    ..

    There are multiple agile and normal amulets of mighty fists - so you can choose either a Str or Dex based monk without too much trouble (though you'll have to get by without agile amulet until you find one... around level 4 I'm guessing from memory.

    Monks are natural classes to make use of the various style feats. The three options are Dragon (damage), Crane (defense), and Pummeling (damage and utility). Pummeling style helps with overcoming DR (and thus increases effective damage) and the feat chain lets you trip for free (stacks with the style strike! i.e. two free trip attempts) and let's you flurry at the end of a charge (i.e. you can immediately unleash a full attack on the backline when you charge to it).

    I cannot give you hard numbers but I think my monk ended up doing around 30 damage per hit (this varies a lot, based on party composition and buffs).

  4. #24
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    A side note:

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt
    replace the inquisitor (who's dazzling display wouldn't be as much needed) with a paladin
    A paladin is an amazing party buffer once she hits level 11: the Aura of Justice ability lets any attack focused party decimate any (evil) foe with impunity. Bosses explode in a round.

  5. #25
    Thanks for those explainations. Monks have changed quite a bit since the last time I played one (more than 15 years ago, Icewind Dale II).

    I've came up with basically the same conclusions yesterday when examining the monk class (except that I didn't really explore the style feats. In particular, I still don't understand how those style feats work/complement with the styles you can pick at levels 5, 9, 13 and 17).

    I may be wrong, but there's probably a minor mistake in your calculations about the rogue:

    From what I understand, at level 12, a "fully" developped rogue would get 7 / 7 / 2 / 2.

    This is because, in this game, the only class that can completely remove the dual-wielding penality is the ranger if she specializes in dual-wielding. A rogue will always suffer the -2 penality on her attacks. Then again, I may be wrong, but it seems a rogue cannot select "Greater two weapon fighting", only the ranger can (at level 10).

    Still, I'll probably still go with a ranged vivisectionist (or possible a ranged 2nd rogue ?) instead of a monk: This character will be a little short on feats (especially since she needs to take shatter defenses) but the feat selection is still managable (will likely be human, tho), it will be easier to level up without making any real mistake, and the damage should outdps that of a monk. Also, there are several items in this game that make it appealing to have at least one bow user.

    Concerning the paladin, yeah, that level 11 party buff is really great. That's why I considered replacing the inquisitor with a paladin.

    I was a bit reluctant to remove the inquisitor from the team, since an inquisitor is the perfect char when it comes to applying Dazzling Display, but I've finally came up with the conclusion that a paladin will do better (overall). Here's the reasonning:

    Right now, my Fig1/Thug1/Inq10 has a near 100% chance to apply a "fear" debuff on ennemies when using Dazzling Display (the 1 fighter level was a mistake, btw). I'm not really fond of the fear effect (too much mess on the battlefield), but what it basically implies is that the inquisitor is overkill when it comes to Dazzling Display: 4+ rounds of shaken status is unneeded. By having a paladin taking care of Dazzling Display, it should still be doable to apply the shaken debuff for 2+ rounds consistently (which is enough) while also offering a party wide smite evil and a much welcome AoE heal.

    So, for now, party composition would be:

    melee: tank, paladin, rogue
    ranged: vivisectionist, AT
    ranged-absentee: MC cleric

    I still need to check if it's possible to get a good skill coverage with this party. If that's the case, then I'll go into the details about each char. I'll probably post the results here once it's done (but it will likely take tome time).
    Last edited by Matt; 11-22-2018 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #26
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    Regarding the style feats and monk style strikes: although the names overlap somewhat they are completely different things.

    Anybody can use style feats; but monks are particularly well suited since (most) style feats require unarmed combat.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Karpophorus's Avatar
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    Between Monk and Rogue you should not only consider, who could potentially do more damage with a single hit. First of all you need to hit, you already did the math yourself.
    Second: You will get hit and Monks (generally speaking) are capable of taking more damage than rogues due to better hit die.

    It is realistic to assume that a rogue, if she hits, is capable of doing 39 damage per hit on average and only through dice.
    It is also possible that she does 66 or 11 only. (6d6 through class skill, 2d6 through amulet, 1d6 team feat, 1d6 accomplished sneak attacker, 1d6 weapon - I may have forgotten other options)

  8. #28
    @Karpophorus: If you factor in Debilitating Injury:Bewildered, the rogue has in fact better chances to hit than the monk (edit: Not by much and this comes at the cost of one less full BAB attack, true). Some ennemies seem to be immune to that effect, but they are quite rare (the only one I've noticed so far is the Ferocious Devourer in Abandoned Keep. I've prolly encountered others but didn't notice). Also, accomplished sneak attacker is of no use to a pure rogue/vivi: you can't get more sneak attack dice than half your level (rounded up). As for the amulet, I'm really unsure how it works: Sometimes I get the bonus 2d6 damage but most of the time I don't. Couldn't figure out why.

    The more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to replace that ranged vivi with a ranged rogue. That means forfeiting some help with clerical buffing, tho. Might be a tough call.
    Last edited by Matt; 11-22-2018 at 03:59 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    @Karpophorus: If you factor in Debilitating Injury:Bewildered, the rogue has in fact better chances to hit than the monk (...)
    Keep in mind that this presupposes the rogue hits. In the case of the level 12 rogue with TWF - assuming the first attack hits you end up with a sequence like:
    7 / 13 / 8 / 8

    That is better than nothing, but even that idealized case is not as good as the monk's normal case:
    12 / 12 / 12 / 7 / 2

    Likewise that does not consider the monk's style strike (or potentially pummeling style) which might do a trip. If we use the trip in an idealized case the monk gets:
    12 / 16 / 16 / 11 / 6 and another attack (of opportunity) when the enemy tries to stand up (not to mention denying the enemy attacks and opportunities to cast spells) because of being prone.
    Last edited by HenriHakl; 11-22-2018 at 04:05 PM.

  10. #30
    It true that, put that way, the monk really looks appealing.

    We could argue that the rogue will benefit from targeting flat-footed AC on a regular basis. I need to start paying more attention to those numbers ingame (regular and flat-footed AC, fear immunity or not). Good news is that it can be easily done, now that we've got an inspect feature.

    I'm still a bit reluctant about having 4 melee chars, but next time I put my current playthough on a halt I'll try to give those monk builds a look. You convinced me that they deserve it ;) And we haven't been talking about the monk's ability to bypass DR, which is another serious perk in its favor.
    Last edited by Matt; 11-22-2018 at 04:58 PM.

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