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  1. #31
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenriHakl View Post
    What? Were the contingency kicks in and the fighter fails his Will save vs domination?

    (Don't get me wrong, I essentially never play casters (monks is where its at, yo), but those high-level spells are pretty bullshit from a balance stand-point.)
    Before we get into this super common argument, may I point out that if you're getting into a 1 on 1 battle in a tabletop game then something has gone terribly terribly wrong? That fighters and Wizards aren't meant to go up against each other mano a mano and that you're supposed to work as a team and that fighters and wizards fulfill different roles on that team that are complementary? And that that's why they aren't balanced against one another? They're balanced against creatures and classes that fulfill their role.

    Basically, you're thinking of "Balance" wrong.

  2. #32
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    Well, it's not like I'm worried for my monks - they'll sweep and mop the floor with wizards

    The team combat roles and balance as a cohesive unit is a thing, of course, but that doesn't mean that fighters do not feel underwhelming at high levels. And of course you can build around their flaws. But after all that is said and done, the average fighter's contribution is HP and hit-things-good and scares things reasonably well. And the wizard discovers the cure/researches the big bad/shifts everybody into a demi-plane/phenomenal cosmic powers at finger tips/consorts with succubi and archons. It doesn't help that the wizard likely has 4x more skill points to spend and might have taking up professional crocheting to fill his spare time for lack of important skills to invest into.

    Buuuuut, the fighter really does hit things really good. And those things tend to stay hit. And the fighter has double the feats of the wizard. And the fighter gets to go tavern crawling while the wizard does lame but plot-relevant things in the library.

    Now all that age-old stuff said; Paizo has done quite a lot to make the fighter specifically less skill starved. There are a lot of options to get "free" skills on fighters now (alternate weapon training options are amazing overall). I'll play a fighter over a wizard any day.

    But I think wizard/cleric spells would be better capped at around level 6 spells - the higher level spells are just ridiculous. I mean making a freaking miracle is something that a high level cleric can do on a daily basis. Freaking miracles! That's around where the fighter gets to make a 4th attack (at -15).

  3. #33
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenriHakl View Post
    But I think wizard/cleric spells would be better capped at around level 6 spells - the higher level spells are just ridiculous. I mean making a freaking miracle is something that a high level cleric can do on a daily basis. Freaking miracles! That's around where the fighter gets to make a 4th attack (at -15).
    The system you want is called "Starfinder" and it was recently released by Paizo. There are no spells above 6th level, for... reasons?

  4. #34
    Senior Member Grifta's Avatar
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    The wizard cannot cast the magic missile if you disable his hand. CLERIC!

    Sorry, I was just poking fun at your assumption that one class would always win against another. But yes, as Stratagemini said, we can have a week long pissing contest about 1-on-1 fights, and abilities and counters to them. Pathfinder is balanced for parties, and the classes are well balanced across the board. Some are good most of the time, some are decent in ever situation, some are amazing in the right situation but terrible in the wrong situation.

    Getting back to the topic of rules adjustments; when they get to stuff like miracle or wish in this, it will likely be the "duplicate a spell" version, plus a handful of basic options. Although it's almost never worth the cost to cast even with unlimited options.

  5. #35
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    I always work to the principle that ANY build can be good in a particular situation - it's up to the players to ensure that is the situation they are in. Case in point, my table group only has 2 moderately experienced players, the other 3 are newbies. I taught the 2 experienced ones, but they've only been playing a year or two. No tanks, lots of stealth. Took me (plus the 2) a while to explain to the 3 newbies that going in loud and mainforcing the front line might not be the best tactical choice for that party...

    A while and 8 deaths.

  6. #36
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stratagemini View Post
    The system you want is called "Starfinder" and it was recently released by Paizo. There are no spells above 6th level, for... reasons?
    I actually play Starfinder, too. Although all casters in Starfinder are limited to 6th level spells; the power level of those spells may be equivalent of a 9th level spell in Pathfinder. In a sense Starfinder just unifies the many casting versions present in Pathfinder and makes them more manageable. That doesn't mean that the daily miracle is off the table as such.

    To be fair; I like the "brokenness" of Pathfinder more (just can't make me happy) ^_^ - but there are many things that I love about Starfinder. The item system especially is very suave. Perhaps I like Pathfinder more because of the huge variety of extra content that has already been published; Starfinder is pretty much limited to Core still.

  7. #37
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    *points up* spambot

  8. #38
    Community Manager Berserkerkitten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davross View Post
    *points up* spambot
    The heck? Thanks, murdered it.
    Ye cannae touch this! - Clan McHammer

  9. #39
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    *helpfully hides the body*

  10. #40
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    *points up* and another one. Something about this thread maybe? (knows nothing of computers)

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