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  1. #51
    Senior Member JulietRosalieMelusine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunehunter View Post
    Another question if anyone is kindly enough to answer. Would paladin be as horrible as they are in Neverwinter night 2? I found there's no reason to take paladin in nwn2 no matter how many class level u invest.
    If you go lvl 1-4 pal, cleric gives two domain that is usually better, if you go lvl 8-12 pal, fighter is always better because of weapon focus series. If you go higher, let's say lvl 20 pal, ranger seems to be better because of perfect two weapon fighting. Cleric in dnd 3.5 can outperform paladin in almost any level.
    So would pal to be as bad as they were in dnd?
    Nobody would say it's going to be horrible. You could asked would paladin have same restrictions or abilities as in DnD. I don't have beta access, but this isn't DnD.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Yesterday's Hero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunehunter View Post
    Another question if anyone is kindly enough to answer. Would paladin be as horrible as they are in Neverwinter night 2? I found there's no reason to take paladin in nwn2 no matter how many class level u invest.
    If you go lvl 1-4 pal, cleric gives two domain that is usually better, if you go lvl 8-12 pal, fighter is always better because of weapon focus series. If you go higher, let's say lvl 20 pal, ranger seems to be better because of perfect two weapon fighting. Cleric in dnd 3.5 can outperform paladin in almost any level.
    So would pal to be as bad as they were in dnd?
    I think you are missing the benefits of the paladin class, like getting useful immunities, a respectable amount of healing (that can be used on yourself as a swift action, even), spells "discounted" in levels, Smite evil for boss fights, good BAB to get multiple attacks and a divine bond.

    Yeah, clerics have more raw power, but paladins are better than fighters, IMHO.

    Also, the game is not using the 3.5 ruleset. Many changes were made to the classes for pathfinder and Paladins were some of the ones that got changed (buffed, you might say) the most.

  3. #53
    Senior Member No One of Consequence's Avatar
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    Besides, whether this class or that class is better than another depends somewhat on how you play. Some classes are better suited to some playstyle than others. So, maybe Paladins don't fit your own playstyle (even though you might like their role).

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunehunter View Post
    Another question if anyone is kindly enough to answer. Would paladin be as horrible as they are in Neverwinter night 2? I found there's no reason to take paladin in nwn2 no matter how many class level u invest.
    If you go lvl 1-4 pal, cleric gives two domain that is usually better, if you go lvl 8-12 pal, fighter is always better because of weapon focus series. If you go higher, let's say lvl 20 pal, ranger seems to be better because of perfect two weapon fighting. Cleric in dnd 3.5 can outperform paladin in almost any level.
    So would pal to be as bad as they were in dnd?
    I've been reading up on Pathfinder since this game came out, and Pathfinder made some changes from DnD 3.5 (which NWN 2 uses) that are relevant. They made it a lot more worth it to stay single-classed all the way through, usually by giving the classes abilities which scale with class level. Paladin lay on hands, for instance, scales with class level.

    And the Paladin looks like a really good class, for a few reasons. (1) Lay on hands can be used as a swift action (a 1/round instantaneous action) when you use it on yourself. So the Paladin can heal himself in battle without costing any of his damage output. Usually, in Pathfinder, in-battle healing isn't worth the action economy cost. Paladin is the exception. (2) Smite evil is really good, and at 11th level Paladins get an ability that lets them give Smite Evil to all their allies. Best buff in the game, it looks to me. (3) Paladin self-buffing (from spells and divine bond) make it comparable as a damage-dealer to a fighter or barbarian.

    You can look up the Pathfinder paladin here. Again, it seems to me that the prize is level 11 for Aura of Justice. See the first post on this thread for how they are planning to implement Aura of Justice. Looks awesome.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunehunter View Post
    Another question if anyone is kindly enough to answer. Would paladin be as horrible as they are in Neverwinter night 2? I found there's no reason to take paladin in nwn2 no matter how many class level u invest.
    If you go lvl 1-4 pal, cleric gives two domain that is usually better, if you go lvl 8-12 pal, fighter is always better because of weapon focus series. If you go higher, let's say lvl 20 pal, ranger seems to be better because of perfect two weapon fighting. Cleric in dnd 3.5 can outperform paladin in almost any level.
    So would pal to be as bad as they were in dnd?
    The important changes to the Paladin from 3.5?

    - They are CHA-Based. All of their abilities run off of Charisma now. no more Wis/Cha hybrid which can't get effective stats for either. Their Saves are boosted by charisma, healing per day is regulated by charisma, spells are cast with charisma and so on.

    -Paladins have better will saves.
    -They have More Smite Evil.
    -Their healing is a lot better and scales with level, and can be used to cure conditions like shaken, or fatigue, or disease.
    -They can channel energy like a cleric to heal in an Area of effect or damage undead in an area of effect like a cleric.
    -They have a divine bond that allows them to basically turn any weapon they use into a customized holy avenger that gets more powerful as the level increases.
    -They have new Auras
    -They have a 20th level capstone that gives them DR 10/Evil and some other fun abilities.

    basically paladins in Pathfinder are a LOT better at Paladining than they used to be.

  6. #56
    Thanks for all replies, all of you have a good point and it seems paladins are better than they were in 3e. However, all of your point is 3e paladins VS pf paladins, and of course they are better.

    However in my previous argument, my point is paladin is not so well in compare with other core book classes, it's 3e paladin VS 3e other classes, that's a different dimension. So my question still stands, are paladin easily replacable by other classes in PF like they are in 3e? I haven't read a lot about pf rules but i heard fighters are pretty OP in raw damage output, and not sure if cleric is still outperforming paladin in both melee and support.

    Paladin imho is a very awkward class in 3r/e rules, it's like a mix of fighter/cleric but not doing good in both side. And the uniqueness they provide is not so obvious and thus i get the conclusion they can be easily replaced in party, or when you multiclass, you can insert any other class to replace paladin levels. But the new swift action LoH/mercy seems good, and hopefully they can use some good spell list in kingmaker.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    if you're fighting an enemy that a paladin can smite? the paladin is your best damage dealer. Period. They have the fastest self healing, Their Weapon bonds make their Weapons into what are basically Holy avengers, on TOP of any previous enchantments, and Smite bypasses DR, adds Cha to attack and your paladin level to damage. Thanks to divine grace? They also have some of the best, if not the best saving throws. Your paladin isn't going to get mind controlled and slaughter the party like your fighter will.

    Paladins are the most versatile healers as far as conditions are concerned, and while they don't do burst healing as well as clerics? In terms of self-healing and getting rid of conditions they're just flat out better.

    Paladins also have passive ally buffing that doesn't consume resources by way of their auras. +4 vs fear effects, +4 vs Charm Effects, The ability to grant allies the ability to smite evil, and +4 vs. compulsions. Most if not all of those are incredibly useful. And the paladin themself gets a better version than what's given to allies.

    Paladins also have Litany spells, and I believe a couple of those made it into the game? They're absolutely amazing.

    As Spell casters? Paladins are lackluster. As Fighters? They have less feats. Paladins excel at three things. 1. Killing anything evil. 2. Healing conditions. and 3. Shrugging off any and all debuffs and mind control. They're pretty much self sufficient. A paladin stands more than equal with a fighter, and can replace a Bard or a cleric in a pinch, but they have their own unique niche that clerics sort of impinge upon? But no one else really does.

    Also, if you want to do a solo run? Paladin is your best bet.
    Last edited by Stratagemini; 07-20-2018 at 02:42 AM.

  8. #58
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    Ok, I see the question. I don't think I know enough about Pathfinder to give a full answer. Here are some thoughts. (1) Pathfinder has so many new base classes (many of which are not in this game) that any given class is probably replaceable by some other class. The Inquisitor is a divine caster with a bit more offense and a bit slower caster progression, which operates in the space between cleric and paladin, for instance. The classes aren't radically unique; there's plenty of overlap in their roles. But they are different enough to make them feel enjoyably different to play, it seems to me. (2) The self-healing of paladin is unique. (3) The cleric isn't as OP as it was in 3.5E, from what I've heard. They were killer melee combatants in 3.5. So that may answer your question, which may have been more about cleric than paladin. The full BAB classes (barbarian, fighter, paladin) are better melee combatants than clerics. (4) The full BAB combined with self-buffing (smites, spells) of paladin distinguishes it from cleric, and enables it to keep up with Barbarian and Fighter in melee. (The cleric can self-buff, but isn't doing so on the full BAB base). The saves, self-healing, and spells distinguish it from Barbarian/Fighter.

    So it does seem to me to do a combination of things which is not simply replaceable by any other class. You can replace any one thing it does, but not everything.
    Last edited by TheMetaphysician; 07-20-2018 at 02:45 AM.

  9. #59
    If Litany of Righteousness is included in the paladin spellbook it gonna be really good yeah. Also I heard that smite is not one attack only now, it lasts until enemy dies or combat end, is that right? If so it's very powerful yeah. I'm also very attracted by Inquisitor, it sounds to be a more offensive version of paladin

    Anyway paladin seems to be pretty promising after a few talks here, and I'm really exciting about kingmaker and hope to be able to play it soon!

    Edit: after reading the paizo paladin wiki, i'm a bit sad we cannot access to Oath of Vengeance archetypes because that's the most enjoyable archetypes i have read so far.

  10. #60
    And one more question for pal, can Divine Bond exceed weapon enchantment +10 total? So if my paladin has already wielding a +5 Holy Avenger, which has +5 enchantment and +2 from holy, would I be able to grant it speed(+3) and keen(+1), which is +11 > +10 total?

    If divine bond can't make weapon goes beyond +10 total, wouldn't it be better to give us an option to pick another bond or an archetypes that replace bond with something else?

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