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  1. #141
    I'm starting to think your right, though they might have taken some liberties with the design of his sword if that's the case.

  2. #142
    Since the boxart of kingmaker showed off the face off with Staggy, maybe this is the assault from the beginning of Wrath?

  3. #143
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sentaiexpress View Post
    Since the boxart of kingmaker showed off the face off with Staggy, maybe this is the assault from the beginning of Wrath?
    Yeah, that's my Guess. This is going to be the Box Art for the Game, and it's the Fall of Kenabres.

  4. #144
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    So I've been lazy, but as of this financial presentation from THQ Nordic, Kingmaker is coming to all THREE Consoles.

  5. #145
    Also, Stratagemini found a picture of Khorramzedeh that confirms the blade in the picture is actually his sword.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blood Dragon95 View Post
    Evil people would never go out of their way to join a crusade and that's the setting of the AP. The authors even say that this Ap only makes sense for good-aligned PCs. Also, I don't see mass combat working in RTWP.
    Yeah I agree. Fighting demon hordes will become very boring very quickly. And if mass combat won't work with RTwP, it will be even worse with TB where every battle takes a ridiculous amount of time to resolve. If TB, then just give me a damn auto-resolve option so I can be done with the shitty combat and move on.

  7. #147
    Wrath has been the leading contender all along so this would not be much of a surprise. Was hoping for Hell's Rebels personally but Wrath is still a solid AP and I look forward to seeing what Owlcat does with it.

  8. #148
    The newest puzzle piece reveals Seelah the iconic Paladin.

  9. #149
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    The Following is my Mad Ravings as of November 20th. I posted it on Discord, and Absolutely NONE of it is Substantiated. Well, Maybe that the AP is Wrath? This is all based off my thought processes, my deductions, and a few pieces of evidence I've collected over the past year (like the mention of technical debt, and the fact that InanKy was the person who originally implemented the Kineticist in the Wildcards DLC). This is just my Thoughts, and as such, It's not going on the Front page (which I just updated).

    Okay, so none of this is stuff that I know for certain. In fact, I don't have any information on any of the stuff here in unless otherwise mentioned. This is almost all speculation. It's wild and probably baseless and where it does have a basis, that basis is in earlier speculation of mine. This is all written as of November 20th, and I'm probably going to post it only after I find out what AP it is on the announcement. Though, I think I already know.

    Wrath of the Righteous

    What is the likely outcome of Owlcat Studios creating a Wrath of the Righteous game? What will it look like? And what will it feel like?

    First, the game will probably be first edition Pathfinder. Owlcat is a small Studio. Wrath of the Righteous is an ambitious project. It is very likely that new game will build off the bones of the old one.

    I do know, that Owlcat has been cleaning up technical debt, and moving over old assets, so it seems likely that all of the classes in the base game (Alchemist, Barbarian (Unchained), Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Inquisitor, Magus, Monk (Unchained), Paladin, Ranger, Rogue (Unchained), Slayer, Sorcerer, and Wizard) will be in the new game.

    I am uncertain as to Kineticist whether Kineticist will follow. Kineticist seems like it needs a lot of work, in kingmaker it was sort of added on to a system that did not have non-lethal damage, and for a class that has non-lethal damage as a centerpiece of the class, that means it's not as integrated into the hole, and it may require a lot more overhaul to implement. On the other hand, it is already far more than half-done, so that seems likely to stick.

    So building on those classes, what other classes are we likely to see?

    Oracle seems almost a given, given the immense popularity of the class and the wide distribution of Elmindra's Eldritch Arcana mod which implements the class.

    Witch seems just as popular among Forum goers, so it seems likely that that will be implemented too.

    Summoner almost certainly will not be in the base game, back during Kingmaker production I heard that you could basically implement Summoner or you could have a great day and you couldn't have both. Seeing what Owlcat did with kingmaker, it seems likely that they will focus on having a great game, rather than a great engine that other people can make great games from. I can't say that I disapprove in any way shape or form of that thinking.

    Similarly, Shifter requires a lot of animations, and so will likely not be in the game.

    Psychic classes are off theme, and also require an entirely new spell list to be implemented along with entirely new ways of casting, and dealing with existing spells like emotional effects. This is a huge investment of time, for a number of classes that aside from the psychic herself, would after that require even more investment. It seems unlikely that occult classes other than perhaps the Kineticist (as discussed above) will be in this game.

    Cavalier, requires that Owlcat implement mounted combat. Much like the issues with the shifter and the Summoner, that seems like a very tall order.

    Gunslinger falls in the same area, since it requires a lot of overhaul to the items in game to get it to work.

    Similarly, Vigilante is a class that you create a whole game around. It is not a class that is easily implemented in Wrath of the righteous. I don't think the Vigilante will be in any of the games, ever.

    As for the Alternate classes (Anti-paladin, Ninja, and Samurai). I think the most of ninja that we will see is several ninja tricks implemented as Rogue tricks. Ninja is off theme for the adventure, and doesn't particularly bring anything to the table that an Unchained Rogue does not aside from the ki pool which you can get from Monk. Samurai are basically Cavaliers that fit the theme even less than Cavaliers do, they are definitely not getting into this game. Finally, I am very very much longing for an anti-Paladin, but Wrath of the righteous does not seem like the correct place to implement it in terms of theme.

    Many of the hybrid classes, such as Investigator and Brawler seem like they have good mechanical basis in the system already. Since it's unlikely that they will Implement all of these new classes my thought as to which will be implemented strays towards those classes which take up an entirely new niche in the system.

    -Arcanist is a more complex and more controversial wizard/sorcerer; it does not make my short list.
    -Bloodrager is extremely popular, but fundamentally as an Arcane Gish it feels the same niche as the magus.
    -Brawler, as a less mystical bare-handed Fighter seems like it would be well-placed to fill a niche that monk does not quite scratch.
    -Hunter seems really easy to implement, since teamwork Feats and Rangers already exists. It fills a nice of an "animal companion class" that is more martial than the druid. That's a good Niche and an easy implementation, so It seems likely that Hunter will be added to the game.
    -Investigator is basically Alchemist with a very slight change in mechanics, I doubt that it will make it in.
    -Shamans, fill a unique niche; they are basically sorcerers for Druids. The shaman Spirits act very similarly to oracle's, and we have familiars already. If shamans are implemented, it seems likely that there will be either less functionality to the familiars then in tabletop, just as in kingmaker, or, that will be added functionality to the familiars since Shaman familiars are super special. I'm leaning towards the latter since I think Witch will also be implemented, and both are familiar heavy classes. Neither approach towards Familiars would prevent shamans from being implemented, and the wandering Spirits issue is no more difficult than a cleric spell book in terms of actual execution, though far more difficult in terms of coding and preparation. I'll admit that I want Shamans almost as much as I want Anti-Paladins, so I might just be justifying this to myself? But I hope they come in.
    -Skalds, are just Angry Bards. They do not fulfill any unique Niche, they are slightly off theme, and so it seems unlikely that they will be implemented. Although, they are extremely easy to implement.
    -Swashbucklers, as agile text-based Mobility combatants hold a niche that is shared with the Unchained Rogue and The Slayer. It is likely in hindsight that Slayer got implemented specifically to deal with that niche. I am uncertain whether swashbucklers will be implemented on their own. Grit is a lot more annoying the program into a computer game, but it's not outside the realm of possibility.
    -Warpriest as a Divine Gish fills the same niche as Inquisitor, so it may not get any love this time. But it shouldn't be that hard to implement and it's pretty popular, so maybe we'll see it anyway?


    Spells, Feats, and the rest of the character creation choices from Kingmaker all seem like they are shoo-ins for the game. It seems unlikely that Owlcat would spend so much work in Kingmaker on these only to cut them out of the next game. It is in fact likely that we will be getting even more spells. I expect a lot more divination spells in particular, Since There were so few in the first game. I am also hoping for a lot more style feats. With so many different feats and spells in the tabletop game, it is probably impossible to predict which ones will be implemented.

    It is important to note, the existence of spells and feats that are only available to worshippers of certain deities. While the general tone in kingmaker was that they did not want to wall off content because of a choice that people make at first level, given the importance of various deities in Wrath of the righteous it seems a lot more likely that they may Implement these sorts of spells and feats. These sorts of thousand feet are little touches, that along with variant Paladin codes and Prestige classes like evangelist, are unlikely to the implemented, but would be really cool if they were.

    In terms of monsters, it seems likely that a lot of buffet and Woodland style monsters will be removed from the game. I do not expect to see any Jabberwocks in the next game. I also do not expect to see dinosaurs. I assume, that swarms will be handled a bit more carefully, likely with a tutorial. I do not expect swarms to have been cut, in fact given the main villain of the game is probably the Demon Lord of insects, I expect that the Swarms will increase in number. Similarly I also expect there

    There are Five systems which I need to Address:

    The first is the kingdom system. A lot of work went into this system so it seems very unlikely that this system will be cut completely in the transfer. In fact, most of my top choices for APs to follow-up Kingmaker were Aps that either had similar systems, or where the system could be retained.
    Since Wrath of the Righteous is not about building a kingdom, it is likely that this system will be retained but will have a smaller more limited role. I suspect we will be in charge of running the Crusade and dealing with the manifold problems that that represents. Alternatively, you might end up with a Drezen management system? But since the 4th AP volume is entirely in the Abyss it seems like it might be an issue to have a kingdom building system that you have to abandon mid-way through the game. Either the kingdom system has a victory condition this time around (which seems unlikely given in the first game it seems to exist only to bring hilarious disaster to your every attempt to bring civilization to the Stolen lands) or it's more of an Army management system. Recruiting armies is a big part of Wrath, but it has very little depth to it in the original AP. You can tell most of the effort was on the Mythic rules in tabletop, so it would be pretty cool to have the Kingdom Building Simulator become an army command simulator.

    Alternatively, this could be a crusade Management system, managing the entirety of the Crusade with Morale, supplies, armed Strength and other such stats. That seems like it might be an easier transition to me, but it also feels like it's a less intimate experience with less payoff, so my money is on armies rather than the crusade as a whole.

    It may be that the Kingdom Building system is ripped out completely, but it seems like that'll take more work than just adapting it.

    The second system, is mass combat. Mass combat was promised as a high-level Kickstarter goal in the first game. I think, that Owlcat games wants to implement mass combat. That supposition is one of the things that made me certain that this game is going to be Wrath of the Righteous. Mind you, it is also what made me think initially that this might be Ironfang Invasion, but I think I'm on the right track. Coupling the actual Mass Combat with the Army simulator above makes me think that the mass combat will likely be book events that are based off your preparations and how well you built your army. It could be that we're going to see a more complex interface and battlefield control as a high level kickstarter goal, but putting in that sort of interface is a big ask, so it probably will need more money, especially when coupled with...

    Mythic. Mythic is the big draw for Wrath. There's literally no way that This game ships without Mythic. We're getting mythic, and that means we're probably getting a wholesale overhaul of the mechanics underlying the combat systems, as well as half a dozen other major tweaks and fixes.

    Fourth is Crafting and Artisans. Artisans were built out of the fundamental thought "Why is this King/queen crafting their own weapons? Don't they have people to do that?" That reasoning doesn't apply any less to "That Mythic adventurer in charge of saving the entire world" than it does to "a random king" so it seems likely that we will not be getting crafting. If we don't have crafting then we either need really cool shops (unlikely), More robust randomly generated loot (somewhat likely after beneath the stolen lands, since they have the system), or some form of artisans. My personal thought is that we're getting some kind of mix between randomly generated loot and artisans. The Artisans will likely be cleaned up for a crusade theme, maybe Armorers for the Army, or something like that? But they might end up hooked into whatever the Kingdom system turns into.

    Finally, there's Mounted Combat. I am nearly certain that we're not getting this. If we are, then we're also getting Paladin mounts and Cavaliers and a whole lot of riding feats and a ride skill, as well as another overhaul to the combat systems. That seems a bit ambitious in scale for the potential pay off, especially with three other systems to adapt.

    I think we'll be seeing a lot of the stuff Owlcat learned to implement in the DLC releases as well. Mimics, randomly generated loot and monsters for random encounters. Maybe some random generation in the Ivory Labyrinth section of the AP as well? Slayer, and maybe Kineticist as well.

    Those are my thoughts so far.



    As for Classes:

    Here are my guesses for archetypes.
    Alchemist - Chiurgeon, Grenadier, Vivisectionist (Add Sacrament Alchemist?, Beastmorph [unlikely unless shifter added], Dragonblood Chymist?, Preservationist or Reanimator)

    Barbarian
    - Armored Hulk, Mad Dog, Invulnerable Rager (Add Beastkin Berserker?, Pack Rager?)

    Bard
    - Archaeologist, Flame Dancer, Thunder Caller (Add Solacer or Arcane Healer, Chronicler of Worlds [wis-focused bard], Dawnflower Dervish?, Faith Singer?)

    Cleric
    - Herald Caller, Ecclesitheurge, Crusader, (add Mendevian Priest, Merciful healer?, Seperatist?)

    Druid
    - Blight Druid, Defender of the True World, Feyspeaker (remove defender of the true world, add Bear Shaman [any shaman really], Halcyon Druid, Nature Fang)

    Fighter
    - Aldori Defender, Tower Shield Specialist, Two-Handed Fighter (add two weapon warrior, child of Acavna and Amaznen?, Polearm Master?, dragonheir scion?)

    Inquisitor
    - Sacred Huntsman, Monster Tactician, Tactical Leader, (add Sanctified Slayer, Cold Iron Warden)

    Kineticist
    - Dark Elementalist, Psychokineticist, Kinetic Knight, (add elemental Purist, Elysiokineticist?, Kinetic Chirurgeon? Overwhelming soul)

    Magus
    - Eldritch Archer, Eldritch Scion, Sword Saint, (Add Armored Battlemage? Myrmidarch? Staff Magus? Hexcrafter?)

    Monk
    - Scaled Fist, Sensei, Traditional Monk (Add Monk of the Mantis? Disciple of Wholeness? Zen Archer?)

    Paladin
    - Divine Hunter, Divine Guardian, Hospitaler, ( add Oath of the Mendevian Crusade, Banishing Warden?, Divine defender?, Iomedean Enforcer? Tortured Crusader?)

    Ranger
    - Freebooter, Flame Warden, Stormwalker (add TangleBriar Demon Slayer, Divine tracker)

    Rogue
    - Eldritch Scoundrel, Knife Master, Thug (Add Sniper, Underground Chemist?)

    Slayer
    -Deliverer, Spawn Slayer, Vanguard (Add Stygian Slayer, Witch Killer?, Sniper?)

    Sorcerer
    - Wild Bloodlines (Empyreal, Sage, and Sylvan) (Add Brutal and Primal)

    Wizard
    - Scroll Savant, Arcane Bomber, Thassilonian Specialist (Add Arcane Bomber, and Shadowcaster)
    Assuming 5 per class
    which may be wrong
    I'd be shocked if we didn't see tanglebriar demonslayer though
    Elysiokineticist depends entirely on InanKy 's willingness to add Wood as an Element for Kineticists though.

  10. #150
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    Excellent breakdown, Stratagemini.

    I'm a bit more on the fence about whether or not Bloodrager will be included. It seems to be a pretty popular class, judging from forum comments and requests, and I think there is something to be said for having multiple classes that fill similar roles with a few unique features (after all, the Witch is an Intelligence-based prepared arcane caster like the Wizard, but it seems likely to be implemented). At the same time, between Oracle, Witch, general updates to the other classes, and maybe a few other more unique classes, it might not be important enough to get included on top of all that. We'll see.

    Mass Combat might be part of the core design or be one of the earlier stretch goals, depending on how important it is to Owlcat. Trying to implement huge battles with normal gameplay probably won't work all that well, so if they include them they'll either be with a unique interface or with Interactive Book Episodes approach (Pillars of Eternity did something just like that in one of its quests, where you got to assign certain army units to deal with other specific army units, so it could work).

    Your earlier comments about Mythic rules maybe being restricted to the main character help, but I am still nervous about implementing them. They open up a lot of balancing issues when the base Pathfinder rules already have a lot to deal with, and I'm nervous that some fans will start to demand that they include Mythic rules again in a hypothetical Pathfinder 3. But it's hard to imagine them doing Wrath of the Righteous without them, so the Owlcats are just going to have to find a way to balance them and make sure that fans understand they're unique to this game and AP.

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