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  1. #181
    You can justify evil if you want to, but thematically in story about good vs evil its not really that appropriate since it'd become evil vs evil instead :p Plotwise its also non sensical in that there are tons of paladins around you with detect evil looking for evil cultist infiltrators and main sponsor of you was the paladin god. Though I suppose they could have Asmodeus help evil characters instead, I'd still find it skeptical if they allow you to be super obviously evil.

    (because yes, the demon cult does infact infiltrate the crusade to rot it from inside)

    Also, second thing is Wrath of the Righteous kinda puts PCs in role of "You are only one with power to solve this", so if game allows you to join demon side, it'd would kind of be early game over because the crusaders are already losing and demons are winning. It wouldn't be much of game otherwise.

    That said, there is probably gonna be "You are allowed to be evil, but not sided with Deskari" type thing and maybe stealing demon lord powers upon killing final boss.

    Like seriously, if game allowed early game "join the demons" thing, it should result in "Demons killed all crusaders and you as well(because seriously, demon cultists don't actually get good deal out of it) because they are treacherous CE beings, worldwound opens further and invasion spreads" non standard early end because otherwise rest of game would be cleaning up the already underdog side
    Last edited by Masky; 12-06-2019 at 08:10 AM.

  2. #182
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    Yeah, I believe not so many really want short game where you backstab one king/queen/leader, get text letting you know that you live in luxyry next 20 year or so and demons take over world then kill you and rest of humanoid kind. I guess it might be fun once but err.. Somehow I believe most would take 120+ hour long game instead of 5 hour "I am evil" fast route.
    "Road to the man's heart go through the chest"

  3. #183
    Senior Member Kamigoroshi's Avatar
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    Meh, I take “Pathfinder: Demon Lordmaker“ over “Pathfinder: Written By Paladins, Exclusively For Paladins and Only Paladins“ any day of the week.

    So, yeah... I rather want to see Owlcat rewrite the AP plot to be waaay less good-aligned specific. With lawful, chaotic, neutral and evil routes as well.

  4. #184
    ...How would you exactly have Chaotic route in this one?

    I mean, maybe you could play as "Hey I'm here just to kill demons because killing demons is fun" but how would that change things besides you being edgier pc on side of crusade? I could misunderstand what you meant, maybe you just mean "have dialog options for all alignments" which they definitely will, but if you actually meant full on distinct routes for all alignments, I don't see how they would do that considering they didn't do that in Kingmaker either.(Like sure, you could choose to be evil jerk who does evil things, but it didn't put you onto different route)

    Either way, it is LG ap because of it being really good for paladins vs CE demosn thing, but nothing makes CG/NG characters less approriate for it. You could play it via neutral characters without changing much, but the low templar thing of "Hey I'm fighting demons for money" doesn't really feel like good motivation for world saving and risking your life and very soul itself :p

    But yeah, in general, vast majority of APs can be played with any alignments besides evil ones, but in some it gets kinda silly to have to justify why these neutral characters doing heroic things for barely any payment aren't just straight up good besides them being edgelords :P

    Like to clarify, you could play Wrath of the Righteous as LG, NG, CG, LN, N, CN without any problem(LE you could justify as well due to Chaos, but NE and CE start becoming silly), but what exactly is benefit of playing neutral aligned character in Good vs Evil AP besides being edgy, being contrarian or min maxing to avoid smite good?
    Last edited by Masky; 12-06-2019 at 10:53 AM.

  5. #185
    Well anyway, I can see how you could have different "routes" per say, but they wouldn't really be alignment based or even different missions, more of motivation based.

    Like, first there would the basic crusader holy mission/save the world/"oh fuck we all die if we don't beat them back" route. Aka what the game basically is. Doesn't matter if you are CN barbarian, cleric NG cleric, N rogue, self preservation is always a possible motivation :P

    Second one would be "Hey I'm desperate mercenary who needs money really badly" method of fighting demons to loot the ruins and such. It'd be kinda hard motivation to be interesting for whole game(since you'd think at some point they would rather leave the crusade rather than risk their lives further), but it'd be funny asshole option.

    Third would be the druid "Let's cleanse this land of corruption and return nature to it"(Wrath of the Righteous does have lot of druid/green faith stuff) along with "I'm from Sarkoris, let's take back our homeland from demons" approach which would be pretty fitting for less jerk neutral options.

    Fourth would be "I want chance to research demons/the rift/etc for chance at ULTIMATE POWAH" evil option. Pretty much all variations of "join the demons!" would make entire plot pointless because as said, the moment mythic PC would join the bad guys, they have already lost as things had already been set in motion for the ruin. Plus the demons aren't trust worthy, they seriously have habits of killing their own cultists when they don't need them anymore :P

  6. #186
    Senior Member Steppenwolf's Avatar
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    So far i´m planning a angel playthrough (call me boring if you want), but if we can become liches, i´m sure evil MCs are covered too.

    And i actually will make a LN MC, as its my favourite alignment (might chance that if being neutral preclude the angel path).

  7. #187
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
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    Okay, so to settle this?
    Basically every Paizo employee there (Mark Moreland, James Jacobs, Jason Buhlman, and Lisa Stevens) has said that Owlcat has come up with really nifty ways to allow *all* alignments to work in the game.

    My supposition, based only on what I have heard in the interviews so far, is that Owlcat is looking for a complex darker narrative for this game.

    There's a line here that seems pertinent:
    “It tells a very ominous story, but we can tell it in a way that nobody else has told that story,” Mishulin said. “What does a demonic invasion mean? How do the Crusaders feel after waging a 100-year war against them? How does it feel to be a volatile force in this conflict, and what price will you pay? How relationships with your friends and neighbors change when you acquire this power?”
    In that context, I think we're focusing on the wrong things here and in Discord. I keep seeing people being "My Chaotic evil cultists wants to help Deskari end the world!" and such, but I don't think Owlcat will be focusing on ultimate goals and how to get there. For one thing, that's kind of awful story-telling for a Character-Driven story, for another, it's actually more limiting. If you write with an endgoal in mind, you can only have so many end goals, maybe 5 or 7 or so. If that's all you have,m it starts to feel railroad-y.

    In Kingmaker, the way Owlcat did things wasn't a focus on End goals, it was a focus on events, methods, and consequences.

    You would see a choice, say Linzi comes in and tells you some terrible dreadful evil has beset your lands (again), like say a plague of chestbursters from Alien. In response you as a player have choices, like "Kill everyone who might possibly be infected. this plague must not Spread (Evil)", And "We must immediately open a triage and hospital to save everyone! (Good)", or "We must get to the root cause of this infection! Spend our resources on investigation! (Unaligned)" Your story would progress based on the consequences of your choices, and your alignment would offer more extreme choices as a result, like a CE character Allying with people you never would have been able to as a Lawful Good Character, or being able to save or murder an important NPC based on your choices.

    In that sense, there's no reason why you can't have a CE Crusader. Instead of going in with the idea to help Deskari, you're Still going in with the idea to win the crusade and Beat Deskari, what your alignment changes are your methods and the consequences for those methods, as well as gives you opportunities you wouldn't have before. Maybe a Chaotic Character can't recruit a Legion of Hellknights to murder their enemies. Maybe a Lawful character can't subvert the cultists of the different demon lords involved into fighting each other instead of the crusades? In Kingmaker you got one chance to "break the story" per alignment per book. I suspect something similar in Wrath.

    All of that factors into the endings in Kingmaker. your endings are literally based off your choices. And maybe in a LE playthrough where you Ally with say, Hellknights (ancient allies of the Crusades in Golarion lore) you end up establishing an unceasing merciless bastion of Law and Order in a Restored Sarkoris. Or for a CE character? Maybe you decide "Deskari has a point?" and betray the crusade after a cool "we're not so different after all" evil monologue. Maybe you give the "we're not so different after all" monologue and decide to *eat* Deskari to gain his Abyssal Realm and become a Demon lord yourself. Maybe if you take this "Lich" path, you end up becoming a second Tar Baphon, or Geb and establishing an unspeakable undead realm locked in an endless fight with the Abyss? And maybe in a CN Ending you decide to destroy the worldwound and retire, letting everyone else sort out the mess? But just like in Kingmaker with Nyrissa, the main story probably won't branch, what will branch are the opportunities you are given and how they effect your route to the ending.

    Does that make sense?
    Last edited by Stratagemini; 12-06-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  8. #188
    I think that was well said. I was kinda trying to say something similar, but you said it much better.

    Like, no matter the alignment, the AP IS about fighting demons. The AP was dark story about redemption, good vs evil and etc, but even if story is changed to allow evil PCs, it is still fighting demons, so any choices about joining forces with demons would be non sensical. It'd be kinda like saying that DA Origins should have had option to join with Darkspawn.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Kamigoroshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masky View Post
    It'd be kinda like saying that DA Origins should have had option to join with Darkspawn.
    Bioware actually did offer that option for Dragon Age: Origin. Well, kinda. The Darkspawn Chronicles DLC was a nice gesture of them for players wanting to join the "other" side of the conflict. I liked that 2 hours long extra content quite a bit.

    In that sense, I see no reason in particular for Owlcat not to do something similar via a post-launch DLC as well. That way people have more extra content to play with and Owlcat has another source of income. Is it too soon to talk about downloadable content? Most likely. But that's the kind of DLC I'd love to see.

  10. #190
    Senior Member HenriHakl's Avatar
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    I think it is safe to say that Owlcat goes the extra mile with their implementation of an AP. They make the story their own. (Perhaps due to being Russian - Owlcat has a penchant to look at the story with quite a twisted perspective. And the story definitely benefits from that.)

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