Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 59
  1. #31
    Senior Member Mat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    274
    Selfish? Sure. If I'm playing a single-player game I'd prefer my character to be the most-important character in the narrative. I think most of us would. I'd much rather play Geralt than Dandelion, or Shepard rather than James Vega.

    Kingmaker as a tabletop is a different beast entirely. The party can decide to rule as a council if they so wish. Even if they don't, the main goal of that AP is to carve a nation out of the wilderness. Even non-baron characters are important members of the fledgling nation. The fighter may be the head of the military. The rogue is the spymaster. Those are important, gratifying roles.

    In Jade Regent everyone is essentially the bodyguards of the NPC. And if there's one thing I typically dislike in video games, it is escort missions. An entire AP that is essentially a prolonged escort mission sounds like a very specific level of hell (the same one where they send child molesters and people who talk at the theater).

    And speaking of selfish, James Jacbos was spectacularly arrogant and selfish inserting his own tabletop character as the rai·son d'ę·tre of Jade Regent. I think the designer was thinking more about his own character and far less about the ones that would have to accompany her.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    1,002
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat View Post
    And speaking of selfish, James Jacobs was spectacularly arrogant and selfish inserting his own tabletop character as the rai·son d'ę·tre of Jade Regent. I think the designer was thinking more about his own character and far less about the ones that would have to accompany her.
    Eh. James Jacobs used his own character to pretty good effect in Hell's Rebels. Jade Regent was very much a take on a Journey to the West-type story. No one wants to be Tripitaka, everyone wants to be Sun Wukong.

  3. #33
    Member Havoc1911's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    89
    Yeah, I have no particular problem with either the premise of Jade Regent or PC's being used in an NPC role. Its really up to the people involved to make the PC's relevant.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Mat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    274
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratagemini View Post
    Eh. James Jacobs used his own character to pretty good effect in Hell's Rebels. Jade Regent was very much a take on a Journey to the West-type story. No one wants to be Tripitaka, everyone wants to be Sun Wukong.
    I'm not familiar with Hell's Rebels. My issue isn't an author insert, my issue is making the most-important character in the AP the designer's character-turned-NPC.

    But I recognize a lot of people play Pathfinder and tabletop RPGs with a different mindset than the people in my group might. Matt Colville says players can be grouped into two categories - actors and audience members. Some players are completely fine being audience members and just watching a cool story unfold. Most of my players want to engage and be the stars. For people like them, Jade Regent needs some work.

  5. #35
    Member Havoc1911's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    89
    I kind of see Jade Regent PC's as the power behind the throne. Sure, Amiko is going to do her thing, but you're the ones carrying her the whole way and (from what I understand) acting as the trusted advisors/consort once she takes power. I'm fine with that. There's always Kingmaker for those who want to take a more active role!

    The newest AP (War of the Crown?) seems to be a similar set-up, with the PC's acting as courtiers in a war of intrigue but not the actual rulers. I may be completely wrong since I haven't seen much more than the advertisement blurbs, but that's the vibe I picked up.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    274
    That's a good point Havoc and it's funny that War for the Crown really appeals to me but Jade Regent as-written doesn't. Maybe if Ameiko were to ascend to her station earlier in the AP I wouldn't have a problem with it. In any case it's obvious a lot of you like the AP or don't mind it, at least. If Kingmaker is good I'll pretty much buy any AP follow-up Owlcat puts out, whether it's Jade Regent or not.

  7. #37
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    50
    I have never played it, but I did start reading into Jade Regent and didn't really care for where it seemed to be going. I started to run Hell's Rebels, and I sort of felt like the two might have played out somewhat similarly, with the PCs sort of being the secondary cast, in a sense. It kind of killed the interest in the AP. Both because of the sort of NPC escort concept, but also because it's one of those really weird set-ups where if you are not particularly invested in a very specific factor, it's very railroad.

    I strongly suspect that War of the Crown will be very much that, but I'm also very concerned that it will destroy the concept of the Empire of Taldor to retcon it into someone's personal preference, which will likely make it very boring and, I don't want to say cookie-cutter, but noting unique or special. Even worse so that the more current write-ups of the nation from things like Inner Sea World Guide it's almost completely negatively presented, showing more how it was not like other nations that the authors clearly liked rather than what Taldor was actually about and did well. In my own head canon, the Grand Prince Stavian III is just too cool as the unofficial iconic Vigilante, somewhat powerless as ruler because of all the red tape, but at night becomes Batman and gets things done he can't normally.

    My understanding about Kingmaker is that while it is designed to have one of the PCs be the "ruler", it is also specifically designed so that it's not one Player telling the other players and characters what to do or being "the star". The nation they are all creating as a group is sort of the special NPC, but it's one that the group is largely in control of creating and personalizing rather than a "pet NPC" or "DM NPC", and that's a big difference.

    I'm not sure I would buy a Jade Regent. Not because it's bad, but rather just because it's something I don't really see myself being invested in or finding that interesting.

  8. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    29
    For Jade Regent, the downside I see to an 'escort the important NPC who is the chosen one' storyline is that it's generally pretty darn easy for that chosen one to die, and wreck the entire adventure. The immediate solution is to say it's not Ameiko who is 'Chosen,' but 'whosoever beareth the family sword and has the right bloodline' which could be any of the PCs (of the appropriate race). But that leads to the secondary issue with a 'carry this magic McGuffin to Mount Doom' or whatever, because then the magic McGuffin is the thing that's pretty much guaranteed to get lost, stolen or destroyed in a game.

    CS Ticket - "I was cleaning out my inventory, and now I can't find the One Ring. Can I finish the game without it?"

    There's also the question of a mandatory companion. In SWG, there were companions that, no matter their utility, I'd never use because they annoyed me, and, happily, I had five or more to choose from. Ameiko was pretty unobjectionable, as written, from what I recall, but a Jade Regent CRPG where Ameiko *must* be in every party could be less fun for a player who isn't fond of her dialogue or coded behavior/attitude or whatever.

    Still, hypothetical problems for a game that's a gleam in the developers eye are good problems to have. :)

    The one funky thing I remember about Jade Regent was that there were Campaign Traits tied to each of the four major NPCs, and the one for Ameiko was just ridiculously better than all the rest (+1 to all saves, potentially, IIRC), so that, in our four man party, two people were competing for Ameiko's affections (to darn near PVP levels...), and one of the other four companions got no attention, because nobody liked his trait.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Stratagemini's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    1,002
    Quote Originally Posted by Set View Post
    For Jade Regent, the downside I see to an 'escort the important NPC who is the chosen one' storyline is that it's generally pretty darn easy for that chosen one to die, and wreck the entire adventure.
    In Jade Regent, if Ameiko dies, the family seal invests one of the PCs with the right to rule. The seal then only matters if that PC dies. No need to carry the seal around. No need to worry about Ameiko dying. This is all in the original AP. You also don't need to take Ameiko with you adventuring. Tell her to watch the caravan and she'll be fine.

  10. #40
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    50
    Quote Originally Posted by Set View Post
    Ameiko was pretty unobjectionable, as written, from what I recall, but a Jade Regent CRPG where Ameiko *must* be in every party could be less fun for a player who isn't fond of her dialogue or coded behavior/attitude or whatever.
    While I've never played it specifically, I have played, and more importantly I am running another AP that has a temporaryish NPC tag along that is similar to her. The issue I have with Ameiko, and the NPC in question is that they are Bards, and superficially should mean that they are background support characters, but in reality, the one thing that they functionally bring to the table is to remove the spotlight from the other support PCs. Having a Bard or Cleric in the actual party means either the DM has to have that NPC sit there and do absolutely nothing, actively do stupid things so as to not step on the PC's toes, or not exist.

    As a video game, this might be less a problem, but then again, it might not be.

    If you build a Bard, just as an example, does that mean that your main Class ability is now kind of useless? Or can you game the system, knowing that the NPC will burn their all of their Rounds per Da Resources first and your character can do other stuff instead, sort of doubling up on the benefits of the class?
    Last edited by Beckett; 07-25-2017 at 07:38 PM.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •